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| Centipede/spider/mantis/scorpion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 18 2012, 08:59 AM (44,183 Views) | |
| Mantra78 | Dec 9 2012, 07:09 PM Post #556 |
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Unicellular Organism
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For anyone interested in documentation of naturally occurring phenomena, (as opposed to staged fights) here are some inspiring videos. I'll first put up two of my favorite insect predators -- water bugs and water tigers (Dytiscus larva). I think it was Wild Dog who wrote that he needed some more evidence of this creature's aggressiveness. Well, here is some. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEPvXZXfEK4 (waterbug) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxccliY1IOQ (water tiger ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FsrSyaIO20 (water tiger ) Which is the deadlier predator? Still undecided, but water bugs seem to be more passive than water tigers. For that reason water tigers get my vote. Oh, and these little fellows are really aggressive too. (Creeping water bug) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic0Pymsbdvk |
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| JaM | Dec 9 2012, 09:18 PM Post #557 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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The centipedes are creepy, but also fascinating. This one is only a small one, Scolopendra cingulata, but it managed to kill a much larger lizard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26650972@N08/3458197659/in/photostream/ The picture of the snake and the centipede earlier in the thread, it's the most venomous of the viper snakes in Europe, its venom is far more potent than the venom of the centipede. One bite and the centipede would be a goner immediately. It's still impressive that the snake could swallow such a large prey. It must have been mashed up inside the snake. What about all those arranged fight videos, btw, are they appropriate here? |
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| Wild | Dec 11 2012, 10:31 AM Post #558 |
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Apex Predator
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hmmmmm interesting BTW Jam |
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| Deleted User | Apr 21 2013, 04:00 PM Post #559 |
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Deleted User
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Scorpion cat beat a pede if it got it's pinchers on and had a venomous sting |
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| Creeper | May 24 2015, 03:40 AM Post #560 |
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Carboniferous Arthropod
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Alright I want to try to tackle this one. I'll start with the scorpion since it is highly favored, and why shouldn't it be? It is the most heavily armored as well as the most heavily armed. How heavily depends on the species. I want to focus on two species here that I feel represent either end of the scorpion spectrum. P. imperator ![]() This is what people think of when you say scorpion. One of the largest representatives of the order it defines the "heavily armored" description and with its massive claws, and the strength to back them, the "heavily armed" part as well. It's venom is on the weaker side when it comes to scorpions as it depends on its claws rather than the mesoma for hunting. The stinger is used more defensively, but it will likely come into play here. You may consider it a tier one contender to represent scorpions here but one should keep in mind that it is considerably slower and less agile even among it's order. H. arizonensis ![]() At the other end we have guys, while not the quentessential tank you see with P. imperator, they could possibly be considered a better fighter, at least in theory. These scorpions aren't as heavily armored either but they are much faster. What really makes me want to bring these guys to the table is the fact that they do hunt centipedes, S. polymorpha, that are of similar propotions, they do this by controlling the head with their claws. As you can see it's claws are no where near as muscled as P. imperator but its loss of power is replaced by a significant boost in speed and agility. These are still very large scorpions. Edited by Creeper, May 24 2015, 03:42 AM.
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| Choeradodis | May 24 2015, 04:02 AM Post #561 |
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Herbivore
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I bet this question has been asked before on this thread, but why were tarantulas excluded? |
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| VenomousDragon | May 24 2015, 04:08 AM Post #562 |
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Omnivore
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Warrior beetle |
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| Creeper | May 24 2015, 04:14 AM Post #563 |
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Carboniferous Arthropod
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Now centipedes are the foil to a scorpion, they are not as heavily armor, though still heavier armored that the other two contenders. Centipedes are fast they never seem to stop moving when confronted. Obviously I want to focus on the genus Scolopendra.![]() All Scolopendra have the basic same design, 20+ legs, and elongated body, and venom injecting forcipules just behind the mandibles. Centipedes are perfectly designed to control their prey, not surprising with all those legs. They also possess a pretty ingenious tactic when faced with a threat, their tail end looks surprisingly like their heads, and the first thing they do when threatened is raise the tail and hide the head. If this convinces the potential predator that the tail is the business end it will allow then the opportunity to flank the attacker with a venomous bite. Unfortunately if a predator gets a good grip on the head their is not much the Scolopendra can do short of attempting to out muscle the attacker with its legs. |
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| VenomousDragon | May 24 2015, 04:20 AM Post #564 |
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Omnivore
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Seriously how do mantids make the list but not predatory beetles or wasps and hornets? |
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| Creeper | May 24 2015, 04:27 AM Post #565 |
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Carboniferous Arthropod
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Well spiders are on the list. I suppose tarantulas would be the top reps there. Tarantulas are sort of a glass cannon in a fight, everything hinges on the first attack. They will rear up and charge, wrap the victim in its legs, grapple and bite. If the first strike fails the tarantula will become pretty evasive, putting as much distance between it and an attacker as possible, lots of threat displaying and defensive strikes that are mostly futile. The spiders body is not designed to trade blows, they have nothing that could really qualify as armor, and autotomy is the go to defense. Most often when you see these fights in videos the tarantula is forced into close quarters with an opponent which doesn't really favor the spider at all since they need a bit of space to poise a proper initial assault, and potential second assault. They are relying on speed and explosiveness followed by evasion that is not possible in a closed environment. Not a favorable environment for the old "stick and move." The mantis is truly a featherweight here, but also has the best record as a macro predator. Similar to the tarantula so much of the mantids tactics pend on the first strike, unlike the spider though it's not a game breaker, a mantis can and will grapple even against over whelming odds. Really anything snagged with those raptorial appendages (a feature that is shared with Amblypygids, who apparently didn't make the cut here?) is going to need a significant size advantage to break free. The mantids weaknesses are threefold: The first that stands out is their narrow frame, an opponent that gets a hold on the body or neck could easily crush the mantis with claws or fangs. Now this can be countered with the mantids long appendages and efficient reflexes, but this brings up the second problem, those long legs. Now they may give a height advantage but they also have the disadvantage of being less stable and when the mantis gets knocked over it does take it some time to right itself. Lastly mantids are effective grapplers and masters of controlling prey, but killers not so much, and they don't really care. A mantid isn't out to kill its prey, just control it so it can start to eat it, while its alive and kicking. They don't have venom to keep the creatures in their grasp from continuing to bite and sting while they are eating it. ![]() At near parity a mantis is pretty well equipped to win at least some conflicts. Unfortunately most videos have the mantis fighting an uphill battle against an opponent several times its weight. Other terrestrial arthropods that didn't make the cut but should have. Amblypygids- giant cave spiders, these are pretty well armored like a scorpion with raptorial pedipals and long limbs like a mantid. Thelyphonids- Very much like a scorpion but bringing an element of chemical warfare into the equation. Predatory Beetles- I have a Fiery Searcher that I wouldn't dare let near my other inverts, and that's just a smaller species. On the same table you have tiger beetles, warrior beetles, gladiator beetles all of which fare very well against larger arthropods. Vespa Hornets and Pepsid Wasps- Ariel advantage not withstanding much like the mantids and beetles above these tenacious hunters don't back down from much larger opponents. Giant Beetles - While not predatory Rhino and Stag beetles put the scorpions armor to shame, and being pound for pound the strongest animals on the planet is something to consider. Giant Water Bugs- Some of the largest true bugs, these little beasties are also macro predators with a venomous sting on raptorial appendages. Despite the name they are not out of their element on land, nor in the air for that matter. Solifugids- These often over looked arachnids, while not venomous still have a mean bite and are much faster than most other arachnids. Other Spiders - There are some very formidable spiders out there that are often over shadowed by tarantulas due to the latters formidable size. Other mygalomorphic spiders; funnel webs, purse webs and trapdoor spiders have representatives that are at least as heavy as the largest mantids with bodies that arent quite as soft as their larger cousins. Lycosid and huntsmen too, have large formidable representatives that would give many species of tarantula a run for their money. Lastly orb weavers can be monstrous macropredators that spin silk with lightning speed and accuracy. Edited by Creeper, May 24 2015, 06:23 AM.
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| Black Ice | May 24 2015, 06:44 AM Post #566 |
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Drom King
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Because the topic was targeted especially towards the big 4 |
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| Deleted User | May 24 2015, 06:50 AM Post #567 |
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Nice to officialy talk to you black ice. Wasps, mantids and some beetles are very impressive to. |
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| Grimace | May 24 2015, 07:14 AM Post #568 |
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Kleptoparasite
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With magic size parity, a jumping or spitting spider could probably beat everything here. |
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| Creeper | May 24 2015, 07:50 AM Post #569 |
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Carboniferous Arthropod
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There are species of mantis, centipedes and scorpions that could have parity battles with them. |
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| Grimace | May 24 2015, 08:04 AM Post #570 |
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Kleptoparasite
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True! I'd still bet on a jumping spider over any of them though. ![]() ![]()
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