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Centipede/spider/mantis/scorpion
Topic Started: Aug 18 2012, 08:59 AM (44,182 Views)
VenomousDragon
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Creeper
May 24 2015, 04:27 AM
alikaren
May 24 2015, 04:02 AM
I bet this question has been asked before on this thread, but why were tarantulas excluded?
Well spiders are on the list. I suppose tarantulas would be the top reps there.

Tarantulas are sort of a glass cannon in a fight, everything hinges on the first attack. They will rear up and charge, wrap the victim in its legs, grapple and bite. If the first strike fails the tarantula will become pretty evasive, putting as much distance between it and an attacker as possible, lots of threat displaying and defensive strikes that are mostly futile. The spiders body is not designed to trade blows, they have nothing that could really qualify as armor, and autotomy is the go to defense. Most often when you see these fights in videos the tarantula is forced into close quarters with an opponent which doesn't really favor the spider at all since they need a bit of space to poise a proper initial assault, and potential second assault. They are relying on speed and explosiveness followed by evasion that is not possible in a closed environment.

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Not a favorable environment for the old "stick and move."
The mantis is truly a featherweight here, but also has the best record as a macro predator.

Similar to the tarantula so much of the mantids tactics pend on the first strike, unlike the spider though it's not a game breaker, a mantis can and will grapple even against over whelming odds. Really anything snagged with those raptorial appendages (a feature that is shared with Amblypygids, who apparently didn't make the cut here?) is going to need a significant size advantage to break free. The mantids weaknesses are threefold: The first that stands out is their narrow frame, an opponent that gets a hold on the body or neck could easily crush the mantis with claws or fangs. Now this can be countered with the mantids long appendages and efficient reflexes, but this brings up the second problem, those long legs. Now they may give a height advantage but they also have the disadvantage of being less stable and when the mantis gets knocked over it does take it some time to right itself. Lastly mantids are effective grapplers and masters of controlling prey, but killers not so much, and they don't really care. A mantid isn't out to kill its prey, just control it so it can start to eat it, while its alive and kicking. They don't have venom to keep the creatures in their grasp from continuing to bite and sting while they are eating it.

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At near parity a mantis is pretty well equipped to win at least some conflicts. Unfortunately most videos have the mantis fighting an uphill battle against an opponent several times its weight.
VenomousDragon
May 24 2015, 04:20 AM
Seriously how do mantids make the list but not predatory beetles or wasps and hornets?
Other terrestrial arthropods that didn't make the cut but should have.

Amblypygids- giant cave spiders, these are pretty well armored like a scorpion with raptorial pedipals and long limbs like a mantid.

Thelyphonids- Very much like a scorpion but bringing an element of chemical warfare into the equation.

Predatory Beetles- I have a Fiery Searcher that I wouldn't dare let near my other inverts, and that's just a smaller species. On the same table you have tiger beetles, warrior beetles, gladiator beetles all of which fare very well against larger arthropods.

Vespa Hornets and Pepsid Wasps- Ariel advantage not withstanding much like the mantids and beetles above these tenacious hunters don't back down from much larger opponents.

Giant Beetles - While not predatory Rhino and Stag beetles put the scorpions armor to shame, and being pound for pound the strongest animals on the planet is something to consider.

Giant Water Bugs- Some of the largest true bugs, these little beasties are also macro predators with a venomous sting on raptorial appendages. Despite the name they are not out of their element on land, nor in the air for that matter.

Solifugids- These often over looked arachnids, while not venomous still have a mean bite and are much faster than most other arachnids.

Other Spiders - There are some very formidable spiders out there that are often over shadowed by tarantulas due to the latters formidable size. Other mygalomorphic spiders; funnel webs, purse webs and trapdoor spiders have representatives that are at least as heavy as the largest mantids with bodies that arent quite as soft as their larger cousins. Lycosid and huntsmen too, have large formidable representatives that would give many species of tarantula a run for their money. Lastly orb weavers can be monstrous macropredators that spin silk with lightning speed and accuracy.
Orthoptera can also produce some pretty badass insects.
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Cojimar 1945
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Scorpions might have an advantage at similar sizes in that they can grip their opponnents with their pinchers and position them in ways that are advantageous. In a scorpion vs centipede video the scorpion was able to grab the centipede around the head and keep the centipedes jaws at a fair distance.
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Cojimar 1945
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However, one disadvantage with mantises is they seem to be less durable than scorpions and beetles. This could be a factor in their losses to giant hornets. Beetles and certain scorpions seem better protected.
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Ceratodromeus
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Didn't know where else to put this
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thegrackle
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I'm an idiot, and accidentally voted spider. I think centipede takes this. They are large, have impressive weapons, and are durable.
I've seen people freak out and step on redheaded centipedes (Scolopendra heros). Afterward, they just scurry away without much injury. I imagine a Scolopendra giganitea would take a lot of invertebrates and vertebrates their own size. That's my opinion for now. If someone one has a really good argument for any of the other contenders, I could change my mind.
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Finderskeepers
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Ceratodromeus
Feb 15 2017, 08:44 AM
Didn't know where else to put this
That's a ridiculous matchup the scorpion massively outweighs the centipede.
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Ceratodromeus
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Finderskeepers
Feb 16 2017, 08:42 AM
Ceratodromeus
Feb 15 2017, 08:44 AM
Didn't know where else to put this
That's a ridiculous matchup the scorpion massively outweighs the centipede.
Didn't post it to try and prove any point whatsoever, so
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Grimace
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I'd rate jumping spiders the highest probably, at parity. Little guys are insane hunters.
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SquamataOrthoptera
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At parity without venom? I would bet on the Centipede out of thoes 4 contenders. Though is this thread just about them? Or are we allowed to bring in other contenders? Without venom, predatory Beetles and Vinegaroons would be top contenders. Species like the Armoured Katydid are also fairly formidable. But between these 4, I would say the Centipede overall.
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Wyvax
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Yeah centipedes are kind of insane, no doubt about it. Though a scorpion or mantis could best one given even footing and size. It is sad that the other arachnids like whip spiders, vinegaroons and sun spiders aren't well known they're crazy like something out of sci fi and have some unique fighting abilities.
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SquamataOrthoptera
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Wyvax
Feb 16 2017, 12:14 PM
Yeah centipedes are kind of insane, no doubt about it. Though a scorpion or mantis could best one given even footing and size. It is sad that the other arachnids like whip spiders, vinegaroons and sun spiders aren't well known they're crazy like something out of sci fi and have some unique fighting abilities.
Camel Spiders tend to do well against Scorpions, but im not sure how well they do against other Insects.
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Black Ice
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I put those 4 in the title because they're obviously the most famous. If I put everything in here it'd be too many to keep track of.

On a different note if ants got as big as any of these I'd say they're #1. Bulldog ants are fuggin savage even solo
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Wyvax
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Apparently certain pseudoscorpions in the Atemnidae family hunt cooperatively for larger prey. That's very impressive.
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SquamataOrthoptera
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Black Ice
Feb 16 2017, 12:47 PM
I put those 4 in the title because they're obviously the most famous. If I put everything in here it'd be too many to keep track of.

On a different note if ants got as big as any of these I'd say they're #1. Bulldog ants are fuggin savage even solo
Alright that makes sence.

Anyway, as I have already said, I bet on the Centipede out of these 4.
This Katydid would be a absolute monster for the vast majority of Insects without venom at parity.
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Edited by SquamataOrthoptera, Feb 17 2017, 01:56 PM.
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Creeper
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Out of all the inverts that I have raised I don't think any of them would be a serious contender against the Scolopendra subspinipes. Having said that, the Mastigoproctus giganteus is a beast of an invert, despite the lack of venom, the pedipalps are very OP, crushing feeder bugs to pulp.
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