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Feline vs Ursine
Topic Started: Sep 7 2012, 09:47 PM (5,217 Views)
Black Ice
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Those wounds look like they have had time to heal as there is no more bleeding happening in most of the pics.
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Vodmeister
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The humerus, and other long bones, are hollow tubes, like a straw.
The empty space does not provide structural support. It is called the medullary cavity. It is filled up by the bone marrow.
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The HKX and HKY values are the percentage of the humerus when looking at it in the X and Y directions (the bone is not perfectly round, as it encounters different stresses from different directions) taken up by the hollow space.
In the cats about 55.65% of the humerus was taken up by this hollow space. In bears it was about 59.3% of their humerus.

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If we look at relative bone density measured in g/cm cubed, the Lion is actually slightly ahead. Measured over four bones (humerus, radius, femur, tibia); the Lion has an average density of 1.3275 against only 1.30 for the Brown Bear.

On another note, the length of each bone is longer for the Bear than the Lion, meaning the Bear was likely the larger animal of the two. Bone density of a bear seems to decrease with size; that's at least the case for the black bear, who is very closely related to his grizzly cousin:
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Thus, if we compare a same-sized Bear to a Lion, the Lion would likely have considerably denser bones, Tigers are likely no different story.

Not nessesary saying a 300 kg Tiger would be physically stronger than a 300 kg Grizzly Bear, but I'm just pointing out the facts that the feline would indeed have stronger bones than the ursine at parity.
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Vodmeister
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First of all, the big cat has retractile claws which are not only much sharper than those of a bear, but also good for clinging. That's not even the most significant advantage the felid holds.

Relative length of the deltopectoral crest:
The deltoid and pectoralis muscles attach to the humerus on the deltopectoral crest (a crest that forms for increasing surface area for muscle attachment, similar to the sagital crest). Along with a relatively longer crest implying more muscle (which would also be implied by a more pronounced crest), the further the end of the crest is from the joint, the more mechanical advantage the muscles that attach their will have.
These muscles are crucial to the ability of a feline to subdue large prey (crucial to grappling ability):
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From "Ecomorphology of the giant bear-dogs Amphicyon and Ischyrocyon" by B. Sorkin.

More information from the same source (Andersson):
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The trochlear flange of the tiger does look bigger than that of the brown bear (or at least, straight rather than bent away), although the overall PC2 value was still lower for the bears. I'm under the impression here that bears sacrificed yet further stability for increased elbow flexibility compared to pantherines (who did so compared to hyenas/cursorial canids). It also sounds like the stability the pantherines retained is stability relevant to grappling with prey though.

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This suggests lion>brownie in rotational ability of the paw.

From “Building a Mammalian Superpredator” by Stephen Wroe:
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In my opinion the most interesting value above is “Rt/Re”.
This value is for the mechanical advantage of the bicep muscle. If two animals have equally powerful biceps, and one has a higher Rt/Re value, it will be able to flex the end of it's radius with greater force. This also once again means that when it comes to flexing, the relative force at the paws is overestimated for felines (as they have an additional length of limb segments).
The values are log(x+1), where x is the actual ratio. Therefore, to find x, we must simply do 10^value - 1.
So the values are:
Sun bear: 0.17219536554813046614559376200578
American black bear: 0.17489755493952954172206776512684
Brown bear: 0.15611224219209884832575567525884
Lion: 0.16680961706096251647088848858969
Jaguar: 0.2078138351067801926325889031707
Leopard: 0.16949939101987098193722100197643

Bears and big cats appear to be overall fairly similar in this value, but all these large felines have greater mechanical advantage of the biceps than the brown bear, suggesting that they may have greater pulling ability given equally sized biceps (if the extra length of their additional limb segments doesn't deflate the functional value).


Bears and big cats appear to be overall fairly similar in this value, but all these large felines have greater mechanical advantage of the biceps than the brown bear, suggesting that they may have greater pulling ability given equally sized biceps (if the extra length of their additional limb segments doesn't deflate the functional value).
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The data from “Ecomorphology...Arctodus”.
The difference in tibia/femur is very large, and doesn't really come close to featuring any overlap between the bear's values and that of the lions or tigers.
It is also interesting to note that Arcotodus, a less cursorial animal than the modern brown bear also has less grappling ability for it's size; less cursorial does not mean a better grappler as that example demonstrates.

Grappling ability and clinging ability isn't quite the same thing.
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Black Ice
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oh god here we go again. -_-
please tell me you posted that yet again just to piss off ursus.
Edited by Black Ice, Sep 9 2012, 07:08 AM.
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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
Thus, if we compare a same-sized Bear to a Lion, the Lion would likely have considerably denser bones, Tigers are likely no different story.

Not going to do much in terms of reinforcement when the bear has ~10-12% robusticity of humerus, while the cats have 8-9% robusticity of humerus. Cortical bone thickness can do wonders for bone bending strength when both animals have humeri of similar thickness. But when there's a significant dispairity in terms of humeral robusticity, that's a whole different ballgame. The bear's humerus will be ~25-33% thicker at equal humerus lengths, so the cat needs to have ~25-33% more cortical bone at equal humerus widths to even break even at equal humerus lengths. So odds are that the bear's humerus will be better reinforced overall.
Quote:
 
The trochlear flange of the tiger does look bigger than that of the brown bear (or at least, straight rather than bent away), although the overall PC2 value was still lower for the bears. I'm under the impression here that bears sacrificed yet further stability for increased elbow flexibility compared to pantherines (who did so compared to hyenas/cursorial canids). It also sounds like the stability the pantherines retained is stability relevant to grappling with prey though.

the lower pc2 values meant the bear had better rotational ability in the wrists, not the cat.
Quote:
 
Relative length of the deltopectoral crest:
The deltoid and pectoralis muscles attach to the humerus on the deltopectoral crest (a crest that forms for increasing surface area for muscle attachment, similar to the sagital crest). Along with a relatively longer crest implying more muscle (which would also be implied by a more pronounced crest), the further the end of the crest is from the joint, the more mechanical advantage the muscles that attach their will have.
These muscles are crucial to the ability of a feline to subdue large prey (crucial to grappling ability):

And the bear has a pronounced advantage at the deltopectoral crest, which is the primary attachment for the muscles which move the humerus. In bears, the deltopectoral crest takes up 75% of the limb's length, whereas in pantherines, it takes up 60-65% of the limb's length.
Quote:
 
This suggests lion>brownie in rotational ability of the paw.

thats frankly not the case.
Quote:
 
First of all, the big cat has retractile claws which are not only much sharper than those of a bear, but also good for clinging. That's not even the most significant advantage the felid holds.

it's not an advantage at all really. Adding "sharp,retractable" is just you trying to make it seem fancy.
Quote:
 
Bears and big cats appear to be overall fairly similar in this value, but all these large felines have greater mechanical advantage of the biceps than the brown bear, suggesting that they may have greater pulling ability given equally sized biceps (if the extra length of their additional limb segments doesn't deflate the functional value).

IF? are you unsure?
Quote:
 
The humerus, and other long bones, are hollow tubes, like a straw.
The empty space does not provide structural support. It is called the medullary cavity. It is filled up by the bone marrow.

ursus has already been over that like 5 times.
For the rest of that, i suggest seeing the muscle strength & flexibility info thread.
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Ursus arctos
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Black Ice
Sep 9 2012, 07:07 AM
oh god here we go again. -_-
please tell me you posted that yet again just to piss off ursus.
You saw my exchange with Vod in the bipedal vs quadrupedal thread, and posts 41 and 43 settled it. There is little congruence between our values and intent behind posting, so there is no productivity in any discussion between me and Vodmeister.
If that is what he wants  :-/ it is easy enough for me to fast forward and just hit the ban button. Otherwise, I don't care and will just resume skipping or skimming over his posts like I do for many posters. Although for his I have higher standards for keywords to stop and read at.
The optimist in me thinks its cool that he spams the info, in hopes that other posters will be forced to learn about what it actually means and respond.

Glancing at your post: check threads on association between moment arms and mechanical advantage per mass of muscle.


Though after imageshack required the deletion of all the pictures from various sources I had uploaded I decided I might as well start reuploading and reposting them.
Edited by Ursus arctos, Sep 9 2012, 05:44 PM.
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FelinePowah
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I think what would be usefull is if people can post clips of bears and cats grappling.
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Black Ice
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Ursus arctos
Sep 9 2012, 05:11 PM
Black Ice
Sep 9 2012, 07:07 AM
oh god here we go again. -_-
please tell me you posted that yet again just to piss off ursus.
You saw my exchange with Vod in the bipedal vs quadrupedal thread, and posts 41 and 43 settled it. There is little congruence between our values and intent behind posting, so there is no productivity in any discussion between me and Vodmeister.
If that is what he wants  :-/ it is easy enough for me to fast forward and just hit the ban button. Otherwise, I don't care and will just resume skipping or skimming over his posts like I do for many posters. Although for his I have higher standards for keywords to stop and read at.
The optimist in me thinks its cool that he spams the info, in hopes that other posters will be forced to learn about what it actually means and respond.

Glancing at your post: check threads on association between moment arms and mechanical advantage per mass of muscle.


Though after imageshack required the deletion of all the pictures from various sources I had uploaded I decided I might as well start reuploading and reposting them.
Yea just like you, im about done debating this whole bear cat thing, there really is no end to it. And dammit it sucks they banned that info.
Edited by Black Ice, Sep 9 2012, 11:24 PM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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FelinePowah
Sep 9 2012, 11:14 PM
I think what would be usefull is if people can post clips of bears and cats grappling.
I posted in the "Grappling dilemma"therad a video of a tiger grappling with a cow, here it is:

For the bear, I almost only find videos, where no grappling is featured, like this:

I'll search some, where they grapple.
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Ursus arctos
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Black Ice
Sep 9 2012, 11:23 PM
Yea just like you, im about done debating this whole bear cat thing, there really is no end to it. And dammit it sucks they banned that info.


I wasn't debating anything with Vod. I was spending my time correcting him, but that isn't what he wants so I'll let him be.

FelinePowah
Sep 9 2012, 11:14 PM
I think what would be usefull is if people can post clips of bears and cats grappling.


I agree. Comparing similarities and differences in strategy may tell us a lot about differences.
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Black Ice
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Bear fight


Tiger

Quote:
 

I wasn't debating anything with Vod. I was spending my time correcting him, but that isn't what he wants so I'll let him be.

Oh my bad, but yea i'll let him be also.
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Vodmeister
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That wont work Black Ice, since you are a hardcore bear and raptor defender. ;)

One second, I'm trying to find the video of two young lions fighting extremely intensely.
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Vodmeister
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Black Ice
Sep 10 2012, 04:23 AM
Bear fight


Tiger
Surely not, have you ever seen Bears fighting more intensely than this;

Posted Image

Posted Image

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And that Lioness fight wasn't even a serious one.

Bears do prefer to fight/combat upright, which they can as they can easily stand bipedal, while felines are better at ground-wrestling.
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Black Ice
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Vodmeister
Sep 10 2012, 06:01 AM
That wont work Black Ice, since you are a hardcore bear and raptor defender. ;)

One second, I'm trying to find the video of two young lions fighting extremely intensely.
Bears, no
Raptors yes.
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Vodmeister
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Ursus arctos
Sep 9 2012, 05:11 PM
Black Ice
Sep 9 2012, 07:07 AM
oh god here we go again. -_-
please tell me you posted that yet again just to piss off ursus.
You saw my exchange with Vod in the bipedal vs quadrupedal thread, and posts 41 and 43 settled it. There is little congruence between our values and intent behind posting, so there is no productivity in any discussion between me and Vodmeister.
If that is what he wants  :-/ it is easy enough for me to fast forward and just hit the ban button. Otherwise, I don't care and will just resume skipping or skimming over his posts like I do for many posters. Although for his I have higher standards for keywords to stop and read at.
The optimist in me thinks its cool that he spams the info, in hopes that other posters will be forced to learn about what it actually means and respond.

Glancing at your post: check threads on association between moment arms and mechanical advantage per mass of muscle.


Though after imageshack required the deletion of all the pictures from various sources I had uploaded I decided I might as well start reuploading and reposting them.
You believe a cheetah is a better example of an animal designed for strength than a bear; but sure, let me be the delusional one here. I am a huge feline enthusiast but even I can see that's ridiculous. Frankly, you know a lot about animals but you don't seem to use much common sense in your posts.
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