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| The Best Carnivoran Fighter | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 8 2012, 11:20 PM (3,003 Views) | |
| Hyaena | Sep 11 2012, 05:15 AM Post #76 |
Hyaenidae & Canidae enthusiast
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Highly debatable until cats reach about 60 pounds or so, otherwise the smaller prey specialists can (and have) been out classed by canids. This of course is excluding the CL, but it's not that out of reach itself either. Edited by Hyaena, Sep 11 2012, 05:15 AM.
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| Vodmeister | Sep 11 2012, 05:28 AM Post #77 |
King of Kings
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Felines are excellent fighters even without canines or claws, same goes with Bears. They are genuinely good grapplers and expertise at using their front limbs efficiently. How about raptors?  They are fragile build and those arms are useless. As I said before, take their weaponry away and Utahraptor is totally out-classed by felines and ursine of the same size. A 470 kg Smilodon Populator would definitely out-wrestle/out-fight a 470 kg Utahraptor. |
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| Lord of the Allosaurs | Sep 11 2012, 05:28 AM Post #78 |
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I was speaking in terms of equal sizes. My point was that a hypothetical 100 kilogram ursid would likely lose against a felid of equal mass. Felids are much more slender, flexible, and agile than ursids as well. |
Failure is the path of least persistence.
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 06:16 AM Post #79 |
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Lol as IF Hows a cat gonna grapple something it cant hold onto without claws? Hows it gonna keep itself from getting killed without weaponry? Same with the bear! Your logic is flawed severely, without its claws a cat cant do any worse damage than a gorilla in terms of grappling  .Same with bears or mustelids. You try to say droms are poor fighters when you yourself didn't understand a cats claws are its LIFE! Without them, it can't do shit like taking down guar. Bears would have to really on blunt trauma as well. You made absolutely 0 sense and are just trying to make it seem raptors are weak. And this whole "frail build and useless arms" means you know nothing about dromaeosaurs as they infact had VERY GOOD grappling and their skeletons are STRONGER then a similiarly sized mammal. You made that assumption just by looking at image from a shitty documentary. When the evidence says otherwise. So no, utahraptor infact outclasses ALL FELINES and ursids at parity Also your using a picture as evidence? Need I bring up the bone studies of birds and bird~like animals? Their skeletons are stronger then mammals at parity. Tyrant had posted it. How about the grappling info on droms? Need that? You are just trying to downgrade raptors now because people are saying they beat cats at parity. I normally try my best to ignore comments like yours when trying to belittle droms, but in this case, I had to correct you. That was the most cat biased statement I have ever heard from you. Edited by Black Ice, Sep 11 2012, 06:51 AM.
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts. 
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 06:22 AM Post #80 |
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Flexible is wrong. And how is being more slender an advantage? Edited by Black Ice, Sep 11 2012, 06:23 AM.
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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| Sicilianu | Sep 11 2012, 08:10 AM Post #81 |
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I am a little lost on how this became about non-carnivorans..... I think on a pound for pound basis, the wolverine is the greatest fighter. It seems to be intermediate between an ursid and felid form, giving it the best of both worlds. I also cannot really think of a carnivoran who could best it at parity. Maybe a small sun bear or a small leopard. It would be an interesting match up between either of those three animals. If we are not talking about a pound for pound thing, then brown bear, tiger, or lion are certainly the great fighting carnivorans. I guess one could argue for the polar bear as well. To sum up: Pound for pound: Wolverine, leopard, sun bear Overall: polar and brown bears, lions, tigers |
Sicilianu
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 08:13 AM Post #82 |
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Lb for lb isn't reliable as bears and a few others aren't the wolverines size neither is vice versa so you really can't compare them in terms of strength or their feats. Lb for lb is more reliable to naturally similiarly sized animals. |
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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| Sicilianu | Sep 11 2012, 08:31 AM Post #83 |
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But there are members of each family in that size range so they are comparable. Largest size is not very good because it excludes every other family but Ursidae and Felidae. Most members seem to agree that Mustelidae is one of the top three families, and they only get to around 50kgs. In fact, Polar bears and brown bears at max weights have nothing to worry about from the largest tiger or lion. Therefore, one has to think of parity or lb for lb somewhat, while keeping in mind max sizes of individuals. Either way, I provided an opinion for both scenarios. |
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Sicilianu
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 08:34 AM Post #84 |
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True but look at it like this. How is a wolverine gonna beat a brown bear at parity? Its a small bear therefore of course your gonna think the smaller wolverine is lb for lb stronger. Same with a tiger and a polar bear. The size difference makes it impossible to know which is stronger lb for lb. It's all a matter of what you see in the animal indivually. But I agree mustelids are at the top in fighting ability, thats about it. |
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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| Sicilianu | Sep 11 2012, 08:56 AM Post #85 |
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With that kind of logic, why even post on the thread? Clearly, none of this speculation is an exact science. |
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Sicilianu
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 09:10 AM Post #86 |
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It's mainly opinionated, is what i'm saying. |
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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| Vodmeister | Sep 11 2012, 10:42 AM Post #87 |
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King of Kings
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Show me one piece of reliable data to back up your comments. You lack basic perception, because it's blurred by biased fanboyism. Compare the relative size of dromaeosaurs forequarters to those of felines or ursine. You'll see that the mammalian predators have much larger/more powerful arms for their size than the dromaeosaurs. If you take their weaponry away, felines and ursine's both out-class utahraptor at size parity. As much as you like to keep talking on how felines and ursine's are both useless without their natural weapons, you are acting like if raptors weren't dependent on the claws and jaws they had. If you took their canines and claws away, raptors would be hopeless! Much more than any feline or bear. At least felines and bears can still wrestle and throw pawswipe at each other without claws and jaws. A dromaeosaurs would be useless without its claws or jaws. How on earth can you say a dromaeosaurs is a better grappler than a feline or ursine at parity? Look at their arms for the love of God, you'll see that felines and ursine have thick muscular arms, where's dromaeosaurs arms were only useful to hold it's claws on. There's a lot of data out there that supports both felines and ursine being great fighters, even if you took their weaponry away. Give me the evidence which suggests raptors are more powerful build at parity. Edited by Vodmeister, Sep 11 2012, 10:44 AM.
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| Lord of the Allosaurs | Sep 11 2012, 10:49 AM Post #88 |
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Being more lightly built gives you greater speed and agility. I accept that ursids have superior front arms and probably higher durability, but for equal sizes felids are more manouverable. |
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Failure is the path of least persistence.
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 11:52 AM Post #89 |
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The truth is that was only me warming up. I could create a thread and fill it completely with why your logic is flawed. But what's the point? Judging by your posts you clearly wont learn anything from it. So i'll simply just forget you even said that. Truth be told majority disagree with you anyway. But anyway I suggest you read eurasian lynx vs 2 velociraptors and leopard vs deinonychus. Better you see the data on the appropriate threads then me wasting time putting it on this one as you in reality are the one that lacks basic perception. Ever since me and ursus were saying raptors(me) beat cats and ursus correcting you etc you have grown hostile and are making senile non logic based.posts. Its sad really. Pfft cats and bears out class droms in grappling, yet your evidence is a picture from a shitty documentary and your own assumptions and bias  . Also you made the claims, yet I see not one piece of proof a cat could kill or even fight another animal without its arsenal, yeah lets see a leopard kill a hyena without being able to grasp it with no claws, or a tiger killing a guar or one another without any weaponry. You see your logic?But then again I guess thats in your opinion "being a great fighter" right? Take away any predators weaponry and they are no where near as dangerous. Edited by Black Ice, Sep 11 2012, 12:10 PM.
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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| Black Ice | Sep 11 2012, 12:05 PM Post #90 |
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Anyway here. Cry me a river buddy http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8326112&t=9647388 http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8301484&t=9519154 http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8301408&t=9519154 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322112103.htm read the last part of this, the high force output refutes your "wimpy arm" excuse. http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8357406&t=9686159 And your calling me biased lol, I don't go around saying raptors beat everything at parity without understanding the square cube law and natural weights. You seem to do that with cats however. So yea whos really the biased one? Need me to make a thread and break it down bit by bit to the finest detail for you to really understand? Just say the word and i'll refute everything you have to say about droms being useless without their weaponry when the fact is a tiger and bear wouldn't be able to kill anything their size or larger without their weapons, they wouldn't even be able to save themselves. Edited by Black Ice, Sep 11 2012, 12:31 PM.
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Taipan stopped me from posting because I thought I was above the rules, and ignoring the stated consequences operated multiple accounts.
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