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Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5) v Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Topic Started: Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM (19,013 Views)
DinosaurMichael
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Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5)
Allosaurus (play /ˌælɵˈsɔrəs/) is a genus of large theropod dinosaur that lived 155 to 150 million years ago during the late Jurassic period (Kimmeridgian to early Tithonian). Allosaurus was a large bipedal predator. Its skull was large and equipped with dozens of large, sharp teeth. It averaged 8.5 meters (28 ft) in length, though fragmentary remains suggest it could have reached over 12 meters (39 ft). Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, its three-fingered forelimbs were small, and the body was balanced by a long, heavy tail. As the most abundant large predator in the Morrison Formation, Allosaurus was at the top of the food chain, probably preying on contemporaneous large herbivorous dinosaurs and perhaps even other predators (e.g. Ceratosaurus). Potential prey included ornithopods, stegosaurids, and sauropods. Allosaurus was a typical large theropod, having a massive skull on a short neck, a long tail and reduced forelimbs. Allosaurus fragilis, the best-known species, had an average length of 8.5 meters (28 ft), with the largest definitive Allosaurus specimen (AMNH 680) estimated at 9.7 meters long (32 ft), and an estimated weight of 2.3 metric tons (2.5 short tons). In his 1976 monograph on Allosaurus, James Madsen mentioned a range of bone sizes which he interpreted to show a maximum length of 12 to 13 meters (40 to 43 ft). As with dinosaurs in general, weight estimates are debatable, and since 1980 have ranged between 1500 kilograms (3300 lb), 1000 to 4000 kilograms (2200 to 8800 lb), and 1010 kilograms (2230 lb) for modal adult weight (not maximum). John Foster, a specialist on the Morrison Formation, suggests that 1000 kg (2200 lb) is reasonable for large adults of A. fragilis, but that 700 kg (1500 lb) is a closer estimate for individuals represented by the average-sized thigh bones he has measured. Using the subadult specimen nicknamed "Big Al", researchers using computer modelling arrived at a best estimate of 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb) for the individual, but by varying parameters they found a range from approximately 1,400 kilograms (3,100 lb) to approximately 2,000 kilograms (4,400 lb).

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This picture will be used from now on when more than 1 Allosaurus is requested in a fight.

Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Dark allosaurus
Oct 25 2012, 08:48 AM
3-6 allosaurus or as much needed vs spinosaurus
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spinosaurus rex
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Vobby
Jan 4 2014, 10:08 PM
spinosaurus rex
Jan 4 2014, 09:03 AM
he's a extreme heavy weight wrestler
I tend to disagree with this. Spinosaurus neck doesn't show insertions for big muscles, like the ones it would need to shake/maneuver other multitonnes animals. If you are referring to the forelimbs, I agree more, spinosaurids always show big and muscolar arms but, on the other hand, we haven't any fossil of Spinosaurus arms, so that we can't be completely sure about their strenght after all. Besides that, as far as I know, excluding Coelurosauria, theropod's hands and arms were good at catching/holding preys, but lacked the necessary mobility to be what we would consider a "wrestler", IMO.
I wasn't really talking about its capabilities in wrestling. I was talking about being a 11+ giant capable of dispatching a 2 ton allosaurus easily. so I see no reason for it to do the same to the others to the point were the rest will give in and leave.
I know we don't have the arms of this creature, but using relatives for references is a useful tool to estimate is size, and they are certainly formidable. heck, even if we use the proportionately short arms like acrocanthosaurus that was used in scott hartmans skeletal drawing, they were still long enough and in the perfect position to kill an allosaur.
I understand that the frontal limbs were not designed with enough mobility to wrestle(note, I only said wrestler due to its massive size), but consider this. tyrannosaurus arms, which is no longer then our arm, is estimated to lift 400 pounds each. just imagine how strong a spinosaurus could be which is almost bigger in every dimension.
lastly, what is the best estimated bite force for spinosaurus? I heard the most likely bite force is around 2 tons. I consider that's enough bite force to kill an allosaurus effectively. spinosaurus might not have the neck to shake multi-ton creatures, but this case, spinosaurus might just be big enough, and the allosaurus might be just small enough, for it to be effectively shake.( laterally)
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Vobby
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spinosaurus rex
Jan 5 2014, 02:12 AM
I was talking about being a 11+ giant
I think that blaze gave good explanation for 11+ tons being unlikely:

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11-14 tonnes... I used to think the same but that'll imply the holotype to be between 8 to 10 tonnes using Hartman's estimates. In Hartman's Fisher King size chart, if you move Giga and Spinosaurus holotypes and Sue and superimpose them together you see that from the hips up to the tip of the tail, they are pretty much the same size, the height is very similar, the length is too, the difference in their total lengths is Spinosaurus's longer neck and torso. Now lets remove the sail (not everything of course), to compare their areas, in the size chart I'm using, Giganotosarus has an area of 36,000, Sue's 36,150 and Spinosaurus's is 40,980; 13.4% (6.5% in linear dimensions) larger than Sue and 13.8% (6.7% linear) larger than the holotype of Giganotoaurus.

But we know that side view doesn't tell the whole story, as evidenced by Hartman finding a volume of 9200L for Sue and 7450L for the holotype of Giganotosaurus, whose volume (and thus weight) will actually be even less had he corrected for the small size of its scapula. If we assume that the holotype of Spinosaurus was equivalent to a Giganotosaurus 6.7% larger than the holotype then we get a weight of 8.3 tonnes, but, given the similarity in size between them from the legs up to the end of the tail, will the longer torso and neck really add up to 1.5 tonnes more than MUCPv-Ch1? that question becomes more important if Spinosaurus is particularly narrow bodied as is implied by Cau's comparisons.

IMO, the holotype of Spinosaurus was around 6 tonnes, 7 tonnes at most, which will make MNSN V4740 between 8 to 10 tonnes using Hartman's estimates.
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spinosaurus rex
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as with most estimates with spinosaurus weight, its just a guess. i still find it possible for MNSN V4740 to weigh around 13 tons. maybe ten tons at least. with so little amount of specimens to work with, i don't think we should just take this as its weight just yet. just as a possibility.
even with this lesser weight, spinosaurus still weighed as much as all the allosaurs combined.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Given the 15-16 metre estimate I am very confident that Spinosaurus was 11-13 tonnes in weight which is more than all the Allosauruses combined. I am now kinda confused about this one but if anything I am now going with the Spinosaurus now since it can kill 1-2 Allosauruses at the beginning or maybe 3. Then the remaining ones get easily butchered.
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spinosaurus rex
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i completely agree. i imagine this fight as spinosaurus dispatching 2 or 3 allosaurs, then the remaining ones will flee. they may be more agile, but they just not fast enough to come in, attack, and back off from a creature well adapted to striking fast 100% of the time. they might get away with it a couple times, but luck is not always constant.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Well those are hypothetical scenarios of who kills who so I would not consider that. But I am very sure that's about right in realistic terms. Actually in real life they would probably get intimidated by Spinosaurus due to its dimensions but in this hypothetical scenario I can see Spinosaurus getting rid of the first attackers then easily handling the outsized remaining Allosauruses.
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Megalosauroid
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theropod
Jan 1 2014, 09:12 PM
Quote:
 
Big Al might be as bulky as DINO 2560, but scaled at the same length it becomes a much larger animal because it has a relatively shorter tail, and even if the 7.5 m specimen has a proportionally identical tail to a 8.5 m DINO 2560, It is less plausible than the 7.3 m figure.

But we should not scale from 7.3 to 8.8 m, that simply overestimates the weight, if the 7.5 m long tail reconstruction matches the 8.5 m, we should scale from 7.5 to 8.5 m to obtain a plausible mass estimate, which gives you 2,184 kg for DINO 2560.
And that my fried is EXACTLY what I did ;)

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2000 kg is for 8.5 m, Ok, but a 30 cm longer tail is not going to add much, Hartman stated that a longer tail added about a dozen kilograms, and that was for a 15 m Spinosaurus, so a 8.8 m long Allosaurus is not going to weight more than 2000 kg.
This was just a matter of scaling compatibility. Shartman's DINO 2560 is roughly 8.6m long.

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12.1/7.5= 1.613333333333"3= 4.1992557037037037 (1500)= 6,298.883 kg

As I wrote, I used 12m and 1.4t, but apart from that I did it the same way.

Spinodontosaurus is right, this won't have any major impact here since Epanterias is one of many Allosaurus specimens

ps. why 12m? I measured the 25cm tall axis of AMNH 5767 in all ways I could think of. Its proportions, as could be expected, yield somewhat variable results (13-64% bigger than AMNH 5753), but on average it's slightly over 29% larger. Consider AMNH 5753 is at least 8% (based on its ilium lenght) bigger than DINO 2560 (measurements from vertebrae indicate more, but they are somewhat tricky to measure accurately). So I think Epanterias is likely close to 12m TL.
So, it was perhaps not 12.1 m? then assuming a range of 11.5-12 m is plausible.
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Drift
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Archer250
Oct 25 2012, 09:16 PM
Well a pack of Allosaurus would have probably hunted sauropods, so the Spinosaurus being bigger than 5 Allosauruses wouldn't have mattered much.
I still feel this has been severely overlooked
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Drift
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*double post of above*
Edited by Drift, Jan 30 2014, 11:56 PM.
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spinosaurus rex
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Drift
Jan 30 2014, 11:55 PM
Archer250
Oct 25 2012, 09:16 PM
Well a pack of Allosaurus would have probably hunted sauropods, so the Spinosaurus being bigger than 5 Allosauruses wouldn't have mattered much.
I still feel this has been severely overlooked
You seen to overlook that this is not a suropod. Its a carnivore that is NOT any more larger then the suropods the allosaurs hunted. Its a creature that is adapted to strike quikly, and has a supirier arsenal af weaponry then any similar sized suropod. Thats why it has the advantage
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Hatzegopteryx
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Drift
Jan 30 2014, 11:55 PM
Archer250
Oct 25 2012, 09:16 PM
Well a pack of Allosaurus would have probably hunted sauropods, so the Spinosaurus being bigger than 5 Allosauruses wouldn't have mattered much.
I still feel this has been severely overlooked
I actually feel it's a bad comparison, and because it is. Remember this is not a sauropod it's a large spinosaurid that bites with enough force to break bone
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Hatzegopteryx
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spinosaurus rex stop ninja posting me ffs lol lol
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Spinosaurus has a good chance of winning, it was more capable of defending itself than sauropods of its size.
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Jan 31 2014, 04:23 AM.
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theropod
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It must have been, considering how otherwise it would have been nothing but an easy prey for at least four other giant theropods it coexisted with...

@megalosauroid: its exact size is hard to tell. its axis is really big and most likely suggests something around 12m (though individual measurements are variable, yielding everything from 10.3 to 15m lol). Its coracoid is relatively short, but it still suggests an animal exceeding 11.5m*.

I personally have no clue where the figure of exactly 12.1m came from. I presume it’s simply meant to be the literal translation of 40ft (albeit an incorrect one, since 40ft actually equals 12.192~12.2m). But of course in fact 40ft itself is probably rounded and is meant to say more or less the same as what one expresses by saying "12m" in the metric system (the "standard giant theropod lenght").

I’ll go with the 12m figure, approximately consistent with an 8.5m DINO 2560, probably ~5.7t in weight. But this is of course an exceptional specimen.

*Something I find really puzzling: it seems forelimb size and scapulocoracoid size/robusticity are inversely correlated in theropods. In Allosaurus, MOR 693 has proportionally shorter forelimbs than DINO 2560. Carnotaurus and Majungasaurus have huge coracoids and atrophied arms, so does T. rex. At the same time, large-armed theropods like Carnosaurs, megalosaurs and spinosaurs have modestly-sized ones.
Perhaps they had some function other than anchoring forelimb muscles? Protecting the chest while resting (instead of large arms) perhaps?
Edited by theropod, Jan 31 2014, 04:24 AM.
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vegetarian
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allosaurus pack
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