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| Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5) v Spinosaurus aegyptiacus | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM (19,021 Views) | |
| DinosaurMichael | Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM Post #1 |
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Apex Predator
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Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5) Allosaurus (play /ˌælɵˈsɔrəs/) is a genus of large theropod dinosaur that lived 155 to 150 million years ago during the late Jurassic period (Kimmeridgian to early Tithonian). Allosaurus was a large bipedal predator. Its skull was large and equipped with dozens of large, sharp teeth. It averaged 8.5 meters (28 ft) in length, though fragmentary remains suggest it could have reached over 12 meters (39 ft). Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, its three-fingered forelimbs were small, and the body was balanced by a long, heavy tail. As the most abundant large predator in the Morrison Formation, Allosaurus was at the top of the food chain, probably preying on contemporaneous large herbivorous dinosaurs and perhaps even other predators (e.g. Ceratosaurus). Potential prey included ornithopods, stegosaurids, and sauropods. Allosaurus was a typical large theropod, having a massive skull on a short neck, a long tail and reduced forelimbs. Allosaurus fragilis, the best-known species, had an average length of 8.5 meters (28 ft), with the largest definitive Allosaurus specimen (AMNH 680) estimated at 9.7 meters long (32 ft), and an estimated weight of 2.3 metric tons (2.5 short tons). In his 1976 monograph on Allosaurus, James Madsen mentioned a range of bone sizes which he interpreted to show a maximum length of 12 to 13 meters (40 to 43 ft). As with dinosaurs in general, weight estimates are debatable, and since 1980 have ranged between 1500 kilograms (3300 lb), 1000 to 4000 kilograms (2200 to 8800 lb), and 1010 kilograms (2230 lb) for modal adult weight (not maximum). John Foster, a specialist on the Morrison Formation, suggests that 1000 kg (2200 lb) is reasonable for large adults of A. fragilis, but that 700 kg (1500 lb) is a closer estimate for individuals represented by the average-sized thigh bones he has measured. Using the subadult specimen nicknamed "Big Al", researchers using computer modelling arrived at a best estimate of 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb) for the individual, but by varying parameters they found a range from approximately 1,400 kilograms (3,100 lb) to approximately 2,000 kilograms (4,400 lb). ![]() This picture will be used from now on when more than 1 Allosaurus is requested in a fight. Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons). ![]() ______________________________________________________________________________
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| Superpredator | Oct 26 2012, 07:32 PM Post #16 |
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Apex Predator
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Allosaurus IMO. |
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| theropod | Oct 26 2012, 07:40 PM Post #17 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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That´s exagerated. spinosaurs is far larger than T. rex, allosaurus is actually larger than albertosaurus and especially better adapted for taking down larger opponents, and destroying spinosaurus in seconds is still unlikely. Following this logic a pack of wolves had to destroy a bear in seconds, which they don´t do appearantly, even though I´m pretty sure if they had to they would be able to kill it. Arguably this would be a very hard fight, like with bears and wolves, and too dangerous for both sides to occur naturally if both had coexisted. |
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| Verdugo | Oct 27 2012, 02:41 AM Post #18 |
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Large Carnivores Enthusiast
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Ok, the "in seconds" part is a little bit over-exaggerated, but 5 Allosaurus would still destroy a Spinosaurus
You really can't stop saying this bullshit again and again, can you ?
Yes, if Epanterias = Allosaurus, but we still not sure that whether Epanterias belongs to Allosaurus species or not so you cannot say that Allosaurus is bigger just because you think Epanterias = Allosaurus
I really hate the way people compare Spinosaurus to bear, there are no anatomical similarities between them, i don't understand why people always compare Spino to bear. If you do know something about bear, i recommend you stop making such ridiculous comparison. It really disturb me Edited by Verdugo, Oct 27 2012, 02:42 AM.
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| theropod | Oct 27 2012, 03:36 AM Post #19 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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It disturbs me that you deny spinosaurus being far larger than T. rex, and also that you don´t get my comparisons... You know, at maximum an allosaurus is probably around 4-5t (including Epanterias), spino is 10t or more. At the same time there are videos of bears not much larger than the wolves chasing away several of them. That spinosaurus is NOT a bear is the actual reason why I think the allosaurus would win. but that they would win easily is absolutely unreasonable. btw epanterias=Allosaurus should be accepted as long as we lack counterarguments, shouldn´t it? most scientists are agreeing about it seemingly. |
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| 7Alx | Oct 27 2012, 05:08 AM Post #20 |
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Herbivore
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I'm not against that Spinosaurus may be largest known theropod. But saying Spinosaurus is (=must be) far/much larger than for example Tyrannosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus is exaggeration too. BTW I am not T. rex defender here. http://imageshack.us/a/img840/8913/spinosaurussuchomimusty.png Tyrannosaurus, Spinosaurus and Suchomimus from Dal Sasso paper. Based on scale bar. Normal Allosaurus is around size of Albertosaurus/Gorgosaurus, although shorter at height. Allosaurus amplexus is a bit debatable due fragmentary remains, but saying Epanterias=Allosaurus isn't wrong and many paleontologists still agree with it, unless the another studies will deny. |
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| Archer250 | Oct 27 2012, 10:01 AM Post #21 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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If those are from Dal Sasso and are not outdated, I'm gonna start believing in that. And in this case, a pack of five A.Fragilis would win. But I don't think they would fight; unless very desperate, predators tend to avoid physical confrontation and rather prefer intimidation. Edited by Archer250, Oct 27 2012, 10:05 AM.
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| Grey | Oct 27 2012, 11:50 AM Post #22 |
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Kleptoparasite
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I was going to say exactly the same line. I was a defender of Spinosaurus since JP3 was made, so even before Dal Sasso discovery, but to be totally objective, it does not seem acknowledged to be absolutely gigantic in body mass compared to the more compact carcharodontosaurids and tyrannosaurids. Still, I favor the pack of Allosaurus but several of them could be greatly injured, or killed. I doubt that naturally, a pack of Allosaurus would reall try this. Spinosaurus is not a gentle prey by any mean... I think that pack hunters are often overrated about their capacities against larger predators. The psychological effect of the size and ferociousness of a healty, larger, killer creature is deciding. Of course, some pack predators are more courageous than others, but do wild dogs attacks lone lionesses ? So, in a death match, yes, Spinosaurus can be defeated, but naturally, if you had to pack 5 Allosaurus against a Spinosaurus, they would think twice before try something. |
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| genao87 | Oct 27 2012, 12:10 PM Post #23 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Spino with its estimates still had a good size advantage. it didnt though dwarf the other dinos/theropods. |
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| Fragillimus335 | Oct 27 2012, 01:42 PM Post #24 |
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Omnivore
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Spinosaurus was 10-12 times the size of an average Allosaurus f., and was twice the weight of the entire attacking Allosaur pack. Spino 7/10. But it might die of it's wounds after the battle. |
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| Verdugo | Oct 27 2012, 03:02 PM Post #25 |
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Large Carnivores Enthusiast
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I AGREE that Spinosaurus would longer and slightly heavier than T rex, but it is not TWICE as large like you said
This is a hypothetical match so both side would try to kill each other, unlike the bear vs wolves video. I agree with what Grey said, naturally, even a pack of 5 Allosaurus wouldn't dare to challenge a large predator like Spinosaurus, Spino also has a sail/hump on its back which makes it looks even more intimidating to smaller Allosaurus. But in a hypothetical fight like this, 5 Allosaurus should be able to defeat 1 Spinosaurus
Proof ?. I remember Epanterias hasn't been classified as Allosaurus species. |
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| Grey | Oct 27 2012, 03:32 PM Post #26 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Frankly I would have no problem if Spinosaurus was such a behemoth but looking at the actual discussions in the paleontology field, and keeping in mind all the possibilities advanced, including the incoming works of Dal sasso and Ibrahim, we just CANNOT ARGUE AS LIKELIHOOD that Spinosaurus was so gigantic. It is very certainly the longest theropod known, it is well possibly the heaviest of them all, but primarily because of its great length. But I doubt that we can argue anything as "much larger than any other theropod". Dal Sasso is the main defender of Spinosaurus at >16 meters long, but his own short-legged life size model is that size, and he's not that liberal about the weight figure. Check the scale given by member 7Alx. Andrea Cau also insists about that notion and claims that there is no proof that any theropod really exceeded 13 meters (and I want insist that 13 meters is something GIGANTIC, people don't realize how large and massive an animal that size is). I agree that Cau is certainly even more rational than I am but his argumentation makes sense as well. I don't say Dal Sasso either is right about his figures, especially about the body mass. I just suggest to not envisions things like 15 tons as a sheer factual data. My personnal feeling is that Spinosaurus will be ultimately confirmed as really longer than any theropod, bigger than the other contenders but not by a so big margin because of a different body structure, and shorter-legged, though not as short as the giant model in Italy. In fact, the Planet Dinosaur model is quite good in my view. This is no claim, only what I think could be determined ultimately. |
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| larryspinosaurus11 | Jan 2 2013, 05:51 AM Post #27 |
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Unicellular Organism
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thanks to the weapons available spinosaurus could win any battle against a theropod dinosaur that is not its size. I ntil it pourait combatre two theropod the same time, as it does not measure more than 12 mètres5 apart tyrannosaurus or other predator psant plude 5 T) but face a 5 allosaurus he has no chance |
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| theropod | Jan 2 2013, 05:57 AM Post #28 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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It actually has:
of course the classifications are not very reliable, but I think until someone manages to find us a difference between it and A. fragilis we should regard it as a member of this species. |
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| blaze | Jan 2 2013, 06:26 AM Post #29 |
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Carnivore
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Ken Carpenter and Greg Paul consider Epanterias remains undiagnostic and probably a different taxon than the A. fragilis holotype due to coming from much younger rocks in the formation, people forget that the Morrison formation is huge and spans a considerable amount of time, lumping everything in A. fragilis is nonsense, specially because the holotype itself is not diagnostic. |
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| theropod | Jan 2 2013, 06:31 AM Post #30 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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I´d say for now both are valid. imo however splitting it up without having actual characters to support it doesn´t make sense either. |
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