| Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5) v Spinosaurus aegyptiacus | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM (19,015 Views) | |
| DinosaurMichael | Oct 25 2012, 09:11 PM Post #1 |
|
Apex Predator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Allosaurus fragilis (Pack of 5) Allosaurus (play /ˌælɵˈsɔrəs/) is a genus of large theropod dinosaur that lived 155 to 150 million years ago during the late Jurassic period (Kimmeridgian to early Tithonian). Allosaurus was a large bipedal predator. Its skull was large and equipped with dozens of large, sharp teeth. It averaged 8.5 meters (28 ft) in length, though fragmentary remains suggest it could have reached over 12 meters (39 ft). Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, its three-fingered forelimbs were small, and the body was balanced by a long, heavy tail. As the most abundant large predator in the Morrison Formation, Allosaurus was at the top of the food chain, probably preying on contemporaneous large herbivorous dinosaurs and perhaps even other predators (e.g. Ceratosaurus). Potential prey included ornithopods, stegosaurids, and sauropods. Allosaurus was a typical large theropod, having a massive skull on a short neck, a long tail and reduced forelimbs. Allosaurus fragilis, the best-known species, had an average length of 8.5 meters (28 ft), with the largest definitive Allosaurus specimen (AMNH 680) estimated at 9.7 meters long (32 ft), and an estimated weight of 2.3 metric tons (2.5 short tons). In his 1976 monograph on Allosaurus, James Madsen mentioned a range of bone sizes which he interpreted to show a maximum length of 12 to 13 meters (40 to 43 ft). As with dinosaurs in general, weight estimates are debatable, and since 1980 have ranged between 1500 kilograms (3300 lb), 1000 to 4000 kilograms (2200 to 8800 lb), and 1010 kilograms (2230 lb) for modal adult weight (not maximum). John Foster, a specialist on the Morrison Formation, suggests that 1000 kg (2200 lb) is reasonable for large adults of A. fragilis, but that 700 kg (1500 lb) is a closer estimate for individuals represented by the average-sized thigh bones he has measured. Using the subadult specimen nicknamed "Big Al", researchers using computer modelling arrived at a best estimate of 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb) for the individual, but by varying parameters they found a range from approximately 1,400 kilograms (3,100 lb) to approximately 2,000 kilograms (4,400 lb). ![]() This picture will be used from now on when more than 1 Allosaurus is requested in a fight. Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons). ![]() ______________________________________________________________________________
|
![]() |
|
| Replies: | |
|---|---|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 25 2013, 12:30 AM Post #106 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
well I do question the probability of finding large 20 ft. mawsonia in the brackish water, the lung fish is a whole lot more believable food source, and they too can almost be 20 ft. not to mention we have evidence of an onchopristus vertebra loged in the snout of a spinosaurus. so apparently the rules on large fish being in brackish water wasn't really an issue back then. I'm not suggesting spinosaurus will thrash the allosaurus if it catch one. if it did, it would most likely drop it from a great height or thrash it up or down instead of thrashing it side to side. but I don't even think it will even bother to do it. I'm just saying that spinosaurus does have the capability to lift a allosaurus in its jaws.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Dec 25 2013, 03:32 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Jinfengopteryx | Dec 25 2013, 03:04 AM Post #107 |
![]()
Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
RE: Onchpristis/Spinosaurus, First of all, this was a vertebra, no tooth. An isolated fish vertebra associated with the speci- men is embedded between the right second premaxillary alveo- lus and its erupting tooth and can be tentatively referred to ? Onchopristis sp. (Stromer, 1926:taf I, fig. 7), a sawfish that is very abundant in the Kem Kem beds. http://reocities.com/Athens/bridge/4602/spinoskull.pdf Secondly, when I tried to put that information (the tooth stuck in a Spinosaurus jaw) in the German Spinosaurus wiki article, it was removed. A user said it would be odd for the vertebrae to get stuck while feeding (if anything we would fish scales or denticles), it would be more likely for the bones to come together after both animals died. Dal Sasso doesn't even draw conclusions from this and no article about spinosaurid diet/feeding cites the Onchopristis vertebra, only the examples in other spinosaurids. |
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 25 2013, 03:31 AM Post #108 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I knew it was a vertebra. thanks for correcting my typo. I need to stop rushing sometimes. |
![]() |
|
| Carcharadon | Dec 25 2013, 04:27 AM Post #109 |
![]()
Shark Toothed Reptile
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
4 allosaurus not being a pack at all I would like to see evidence against allosaurus being a pack hunter, and also evidence for pack hunting being almost non-existent among reptiles. What does that bonebed with several mapusaurus found together tell you?And this is a hypothetical fight, why is it a problem speculating a pack of allosaurus working together in a hypothetical fight like this? Edited by Carcharadon, Dec 25 2013, 04:32 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 25 2013, 04:39 AM Post #110 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
because as a hypothetical fight, every scientific advantage must be questioned, determined, and compared to the other rival. with the utter lack of evidence of allosaurs being pack hunters, I understand his point of view. if his statement is true, and they did pack hunt, I don't think the pack will be like a coordinated strike like a wolf pack. it probably be more like a bunch of komodo dragons. once one bites, others are drawn in to the blood. that would be the behavior of an allosaur with a mind more similar to reptilian. if it was more like a birds behavior, the chances of it being able to coordinate can increase, but not significantly. but as we cannot observe these creatures and how they behaved, much of it is left to speculation. Edited by spinosaurus rex, Dec 25 2013, 04:42 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Drift | Dec 30 2013, 10:19 AM Post #111 |
|
High Spined Lizard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
IMO a few are overestimating the capabilities of the animal here, yes the spinosaur has somewhat of a size advantage however i can't help but feel you are comparing the "large predator dominates smaller pack ones" to a lions relation to hyenas.The 5 animals ( regardless of pack behavior ) will undoubtedly wear a lone target out and feast on it, capable of using their front limbs to cut meat of a larger organism combined with multiple bites from different angles.No therapod will be able to systematically fend off attacks from the sides while simultaneously trying to dole out damage to attackers as well, it will take more damage collectively than any single allosaur when these numbers are involved.3 of them would have made this a more balanced battle, throwing in an additional 2? That's overkill, to think any therapod could retain enough energy to fend off or kill all the predators of this size is ludacris |
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 30 2013, 12:03 PM Post #112 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
we're comparing spinosaurus and allosaurus behavior to lions and hyenas because the proportions are just as similar. heck, its even more so. a lion weighs a little more then two hyenas yet they can chase off packs of them. spinosaurus had a weight advantage over five allosaurs combined. and to top it off as a predator with a superior arsenal of weaponry, spinosaurus does in fact has the advantage. and I doubt spinosaurus will really move much. dodging a creature adapted to strike fast is a hard feat to perform for an allosaur who weighs 2 tons themselves. if an allosaurus strikes, it will hang back and unfortunately get within range of the spinosaurus. and when the spinosaur locks on, goodbye allo. and that's what I imagine with the others to the point until they have to give up. I do believe five can take down a spinosaur, but its more likely for the larger, rugged, and more powerful predator to prevail. |
![]() |
|
| Vobby | Dec 31 2013, 03:05 AM Post #113 |
|
Omnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Carcharodon, how many pack hunters reptiles, considering birds, do you know? I only know about a few birds of prey, a little minority, which sometimes can hunt in pair. I'm not sure, but in a falconry forum I may have read about a falcon which can hunt in groups of 3 or 4, but I don't remember the specific specie. I didn't know about Mapusaurus bonebeds, can you tell me more about this? Is it considered evidence for Mapusaurus being a pack hunter? Is it considered evidence for Allosaurus, a theropod of a different clade wich lived tens of millions of years before to be a pack hunter? Since is you the one who are making the claim, you're the one which needs to prove it. Moreover, I don't think is the case to consider bonebeds in which are conserved different individuals of the same taxon a proof for that taxon to hunt in packs. Otherwise, we should consider Titanoboa to be a pack hunter: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.it/2013/10/la-caccia-sociale-e-le-cure-parentali.html&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8 Just to be clear, I'm no expert of pack hunting in extinct taxa, I would gladly learn that Allosaurus was a pack hunter (10000+ coolness points, seriously), but I doubt there are proofs of this being true. Since there are no reptiles which hunt like wolves (even canids like wolves, AWDs, bush dogs and dholes are, after all, something like an exceptions amongst carnivorans, the majority of them being mostly lone predators), which is what is being assumed here, so it would be a enormous exceptions for Allosaurus to hunt like this. About your last question, I think that making baseless hypothesis is what would make this section of the forum completely childish and pointless. I like to learn about Allosaurus and Spinosaurus trough confronting them, is funny and usefull, but if we start to freely speculate we would end out assuming Allosaurus to be poisonous and Spinosaurus to breath fire. @Spinosaurus rex, I don't think that your examples of komodo dragons fits well for this match: it is entirely possible that Allosaurus behaved that way, it would be the same of some sharks and crocodiles too, but these animals still always attack only preys which can be killed by only one of them. It's not that crocodiles and monitors rely on their "neighbors" to hunt animals which cannot be defeated otherwise. |
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 31 2013, 03:40 AM Post #114 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
komodo dragons are considered pack hunters to an extent. when hunting water buffalo, often many others join in order to speed up the process of killing it. although its not really coordinated. and nile monitors even work together to steal crocodile eggs. one distracts the mother while the other steals the eggs. but other then that, there really isn't any reptilians other then a few birds of prey that can truly pack hunt. if allosaurs did pack hunt and exhibit behavior similar to reptiles, it would be like a group of komodo dragons. one strikes, others follow with no planned out or coordinated strike. just a set full mind on bringing this beast down. vobby why doesn't my example fit well. these are a bunch of smaller predators, assuming they had a mind set of a reptiles, attacking a larger animal. sounds pretty similar to groups of komodo dragons ganging up and harassing a much larger water buffalo until it dies. and its not like komodo dragon only feed on water buffalo. they also take rabbits, snakes and lizards upon opportunity that also doesn't rely on neighbors to aid it. in this scenario, you obviously need more then one allosaurus to fight this creature. right now, what's coming into question is how tactical an allosaurus pack is. there are examples or reptiles working together, although there very few and no where near complicated or tactical as a mammalian pack. so we cannot exclude the ability of allosaurus being able to pack hunt. until a proper study is made, much is still left to debate |
![]() |
|
| theropod | Dec 31 2013, 05:31 AM Post #115 |
|
palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Crocodilians and monitor lizards are capable of gregarious behaviour, and allosaurian theropods had at least comparable mental capacities. While single bonebeds are not exactly strong evidence, the recurring findings of several associated specimens suggests this was not uncommon among theropods. Furthermore many carnosaurs and other theropods (including Allosaurus) show crestlike display structures on their skulls. Thus the assumption of Allosaurus being a (or at least an occasional) pack hunter is a very logical one (at least by no means less likely than that it wasn't). Considering it preyed on animals of considerable size, it is most likely it did so cooperatively, not on its own (read Farlow et al. 1976). To classify as "pack hunter" by some definition, it is not necessary to have complex social structures like those of some carnivorans or cetaceans! http://www.jstor.org/stable/2424244 Edited by theropod, Dec 31 2013, 07:06 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vobby | Dec 31 2013, 08:20 AM Post #116 |
|
Omnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
As far as I know, the gregarious behaviour of many reptiles is called "antagonistic aggregation" or something like this. It is something often found in many species of sharks, not only reptiles. My opinion is that such a gregarious behaviour may have been quite normal amongst extinct theropods, like it is for extant crocodilians and birds. Since reptiles in general and crocodilians and birds, with the exeption of a few birds of prey, are lone predators, the best hipothesis for extinct archosaurs is that they had the same habits in this sense. The reason I think that the komodo dragon example isn't very fitting for this match is that, when gregarious animals kills prey in groups, they don't really work together: the first individual attack a prey that he thinks it can kill alone - and in fact komodo dragons can singularly kill water buffalos - and only then the other individuals join the attack, not to kill the prey more easily, but to have a part of it. I mean, as far as I know, no gregarious predator attack prey relying on the intervention of other individuals. They don't hunt together, they compete for the same prey and food, with the consequence that the prey is more easily killed and then the food is more easily available. So, my opinion is that more Allosauri would attack a Spinosaurus at the same time ONLY IF single Allosauri would think of Spinosaurus as a possible prey item, which I find unlikely. |
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 31 2013, 09:07 AM Post #117 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
the more komodo dragons that attack, the more effective they are to make the kill. its pretty simple to understand. of course, the komodo dragons don't realize that. we already clarified that they don't plan out tactics too take large prey items. but the simple fact that they do come together to gain their share of the goal in mind is what I'm trying to say. single komodo dragons can kill water buffalo but it can often take around one week to complete the task. a entire pack( by reptilian terms) can have the deed done in around a day or two. to me, a pack hunt is pretty much any association between more then one similar species to achieve a common goal. doesn't matter is they use tactics or communicate with one another. as long as they achieve a goal their way, I qualify it as a pack. also, vobby, their isn't any competition between the komodo dragons when the prey item the targeted and track is still alive. these normally solitary hunters can withstand the presence of each other just enough to achieve a kill. the same cannot be said when the prey item is dead and the lizards mob it and fight for feeding rights. I will qualify that as competition. but honestly, what pack predator doesn't show this behavior. even mammalian predators such as lions, wolves, hyenas, etc. display competition and dominance over kills. I respect your opinion. but this is my view on what qualifies as a pack hunter. |
![]() |
|
| Vobby | Dec 31 2013, 09:21 AM Post #118 |
|
Omnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You don't need to clarify that you respect my opinion to disagree with me! I can perfectly be always wrong ![]() The fact that single komodo dragons attack only animals that they can kill by themselves, without relying on the help of other dragons, is something very important for this match, becouse I really doubt that one single Allosaurus would think of a Spinosaurus as a possible prey item. 5 of them could take it down, but they won't, becouse no one of them would think to be able of doing it alone. This is quite easy to understand too ![]() Less on topic, I'm very interested in monitor lizards and I would love to see some reports of this "gregarious hunting"! |
![]() |
|
| spinosaurus rex | Dec 31 2013, 09:32 AM Post #119 |
![]()
Carnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
but the fact that they do come together to achieve a kill can not be ignored as well. and the fact that more komodo dragons can kill a buffalo almost seven times faster then it can single handily is quite a lot to consider. I agree that a single allosaur would be messed up in the head if it thinks it can take a spinosaurus solo. heck, I think spinosaurus can win the majority over five allosaurs. unlike the komodo dragon, the allosaurs are being pitted against a larger and proportionally more dangerous predator capable of dispatching one quick and easily. Edited by spinosaurus rex, Dec 31 2013, 09:34 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Megalosauroid | Dec 31 2013, 11:31 AM Post #120 |
|
Autotrophic Organism
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Didnt you say the largest was over 3 tons? I bet 2,3 tonnes is too low even for Allosaurus fragillis. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Dinosauria Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic » |
| Theme: Dinosauria light | Track Topic · E-mail Topic |
2:24 AM Jul 14
|
Powered by ZetaBoards Premium · Privacy Policy


)


![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)








I would like to see evidence against allosaurus being a pack hunter, and also evidence for pack hunting being almost non-existent among reptiles. What does that bonebed with several mapusaurus found together tell you?

2:24 AM Jul 14