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| Sooo, dinosaurs have officially turned into birds | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 3 2012, 08:13 AM (10,710 Views) | |
| Godzillasaurus | Nov 3 2012, 08:13 AM Post #1 |
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Reptile King
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Not in the evolutionary sense, but in the sarcastic sense. Dinosaurs used to be large, scaly, beasts. Now, everyone thinks they all (yes, including sauropods) had feathers. If there have been countless dinosaur skin-impressions, and only a couple feathered non-ceoulosaur theropods, I guess that just puts feathers on every dinosaur, even when the evidence states otherwise. Anyone else bothered by this?
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| SpinoInWonderland | Nov 8 2012, 06:41 PM Post #31 |
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The madness has come back...
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This dominates over them both |
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| Cat | Nov 8 2012, 06:58 PM Post #32 |
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Omnivore
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Look, my friend, elephants have no more fur than supermodels have mustachioes. Fur is a thick covering of noticeably long hair. Technically, elephants and whales have haired bodies. So does Charlize Theron. In practice, they are all hairless as eggs. The problem is that when people hear of 'feathered' dinos they imagine giant turkeys. There are only few dinos who are proved to look like giant turkeys. Those 'scaled' impressions may not reveal thin, almost microscopic filaments, but those would be irrelevant about how dinos looked like. So it is, to say the least, quite premature to 'redraw hundreds of dino images'. Unless somebody don't want to draw fantasy animals, in that case they are welcome to post their work of art in the spam section. |
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| Admantus | Nov 10 2012, 11:29 PM Post #33 |
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Herbivore
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No. Remove the second one. It's burning my eyes. |
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| Cat | Nov 11 2012, 01:28 AM Post #34 |
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Omnivore
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The second one is basically a 'cartoon' dinosaur, so it's even more fantastic than the others. |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Nov 11 2012, 01:39 AM Post #35 |
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The madness has come back...
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real dinosaurs are always better than cartoon dinosaurs, 100% of all time |
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| theropod | Nov 11 2012, 03:08 AM Post #36 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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There is not one single dinosaur proven to be a giant turkey, the only dinosaur that does resemble a turkey is the turkey itself. I can´t help the stupid guys that equate a feathered dinosaur with a giant turkey I´m not talking about the superficial look of them, as I said in large ones you´d probably see about as many feathers as hair in elephants, but I´m talking about the actual presence of biological traits and abotu the fact that these traits where most likely far more widespread than you think, whether they were superficially a prominent character or not. PS: the second deinonychus picture is an insult to palaeontology! |
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| JD-man | Feb 10 2013, 05:03 PM Post #37 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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No offense, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be: For 1, it's a juvenile & "problems occur when you go around producing taxonomy for species based on juveniles, because some features that diagnose adults do not appear until well along in age" ( http://qilong.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/the-squirrel-imitator/ ); For another, Cau's analysis "included more coelurosaur species, so I'd tend to put more stock in that one" ( http://Albertonykus.deviantart.com/journal/Otto-312279124 ).
To be fair, "the embryonic titanosaurs from Auca Mahuevo have full-body skin casts" ( http://dml.cmnh.org/2011Sep/msg00129.html ).
Actually, they're said to be "very similar. Whether these turn out to be formed by convergence with theropods or retention in both groups of some ancestral dino-fuzz is not yet certain" ( http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G104/lectures/104aves.html ).
Actually, it's still possible (if not probable) that heterdontosaurids were primitive ornithopods (See the Butler/Barrett quote). Sereno 2012 ( http://www.pensoft.net/journals/zookeys/article/2840/abstract/taxonomy-morphology-masticatory-function-and-phylogeny-of-heterodontosaurid-dinosaurs ) shows that, at the very least, they were neornithischians (as opposed to primitive ornithischians). Quoting Butler & Barrett ( http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dinosaur-Second-Life-Past/dp/0253357012/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360481558&sr=1-1 ):
Edited by JD-man, May 26 2013, 01:28 AM.
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| Jinfengopteryx | Feb 10 2013, 07:04 PM Post #38 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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I already know Cau's blog entry about that now, but I did not know it when I posted this. |
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| JD-man | Feb 11 2013, 03:26 AM Post #39 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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No offense, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be: In reference to megalosauridae, Sciurumimus was probably a coelurosaur ( http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.com/2012/07/sciurumimus-albersdoerferi-rauhut-et-al.html&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8 ); In reference to carcharodontosauridae, Concavenator probably lacked proto-feathers (See "Allosauroids with proto-feathered arms?": http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/09/09/concavenator-incredible-allosauroid/ ); In reference to ornithischians, see my previous post.
While you're both right to correct Black Ice, you're also both wrong in 1 very important way: Regardless of the common names (in this case, lizard-hipped), birds are saurischians for the same reason they're dinos: To paraphrase Holly ( http://darwinwasright.homestead.com/UranFnMonkeyMate.html ), "They evolved from saurischians. Their ancestors were saurischians. They're descended from saurischians. They are saurischians."
Just making sure. Edited by JD-man, Feb 11 2013, 03:41 AM.
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| theropod | Feb 11 2013, 04:14 AM Post #40 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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^I didn't write they wheren't, of course birds are saurischians, for the same reasons they are dinosaurs as you note yourself. Obviously, the ornithischian pelvis is a mere homoplasy. I think that fact is so obvious it can be regarded general knowledge. I'm just rejecting the claim that ornithischians where not birdlike, as I think all dinosaurs share many birdlike features. I wouldn't say "probably", "maybe" or "possibly" would be more appropriate. After all, there is more to a cladistic analysis than the mere inclusion of lots of taxa (of course that's important), but weighing features is too important. I tend to trust human analyses in such regards, as no computer has so far given me an explanation why an animal should have megalosauroid features but be a coelurosaur. After all, Rauhut and collegues even give features that it differs from coelurosaurs in. [IMG]The maxilla has a marked kink in the anterior margin of the ascending process dorsally and a large maxillary fenestra, which is closed medially (Figs. 1B and 2A), as in other megalosaurids (9, 10). A small premaxillary fenestra seems to be present under the overhanging anterior rim of the antorbital fossa. The maxillary antorbital fossa anterior to the antorbital fenestra accounts for ∼23% of the total length of the antorbital fossa, as in other basal tetanurans but unlike coelurosaurs, in which it typically accounts for 40% or more ofthe antorbital fossa (11). The lacrimal has a long, thin anterior process, which laterally forms a large lacrimal antorbital fossa that is continuous between the dorsal and ventral part of the vertical strut, in contrast to most theropods but similar to Torvosaurus (12).[/IMG]
I can count four traits that it shares with megalosaurs, countless ones that are similar to other basal tetanurans, one that it shares with compsognathids, and one seperating it from coelurosaurs, and I have just started reading the paper. I'm not saying it is not possible that it was a coelurosaur, but it is not probable imo Did Cau even have access to the specimens? I'm getting the impression the importance of a single matrix is sometimes overrated. It is a great project, but like any other analysis it can be wrong, in fact that wouldn't be too unusual as cladistic analyses nearly always contradict each other. |
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| theropod | Feb 11 2013, 04:23 AM Post #41 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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On the Concavenator-issue: Darren Naish just states he is not convinced of these being quill knobs, not that they couldn't be. With all due respect, I have the impression you are jumping to conclusions and believing every post that doubts the existence of megalosaurs or carnosaurs. That post is an interesting alternative indeed, still there are other sources that are not simply debunked once someone has doubts, even less if those sources are the ones actually studying and describing the real fossils (Darren Naish would certainly agree here, after all he states the exact same thing when explaining why Reptileevolution is BS). These are not necessarily quill knobs, but they could be, Sciurumimus isn't necessarily a megalosauroid, but it could be and in boith cases there is no reason why they shouldn't, unless one doesn't like the tought of feathery integument being more widespred than tought. Edited by theropod, Feb 11 2013, 04:24 AM.
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| Jinfengopteryx | Feb 11 2013, 04:27 AM Post #42 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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If you allow me, I can quote myself, to say why Rauhut claimed it was a Coelurosaur: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/29/11746.full.pdf The maxilla has a marked kink in the anterior margin of the ascending process dorsally and a large maxillary fenestra, which is closed medially (Figs. 1B and 2A), as in other megalosaurids (9, 10). A small premaxillary fenestra seems to be present under the overhanging anterior rim of the antorbital fossa. The maxillary antorbital fossa anterior to the antorbital fenestra accounts for ∼23% of the total length of the antorbital fossa, as in other basal tetanurans but unlike coelurosaurs, in which it typically accounts for 40% or more of the antorbital fossa (11). The lacrimal has a long, thin anterior process, which laterally forms a large lacrimal antorbital fossa that is continuous between the dorsal and ventral part of the vertical strut, in contrast to most theropods but similar to Torvosaurus (12). His sources: (9). Benson RBJ (2008) A redescription of ’Megalosaurus’ hesperis (Dinosauria, Theropoda) from the Inferior Oolite (Bajocian, Middle Jurassic) of Dorset, United Kingdom. Zootaxa 1931:57–67. (10). Benson RBJ (2010) A description of Megalosaurus bucklandii (Dinosauria: Theropoda) from the Bathonian of the UK and the relationships of Middle Jurassic theropods. Zool J Linn Soc 158:882–935. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1096-3642.2009.00569.x/abstract (11). Rauhut OWM (2003) The interrelationships and evolution of basal theropod dinosaurs. Spec Pap Palaeont 69:1–213. (12). Britt BB (1991) Theropods of Dry Mesa Quarry (Morrison Formation, Late Jurassic), Colorado, with emphasis on the osteology of Torvosaurus tanneri. BYU Geol Stud 37:1–72. Just to make clear, why it is believed to be a Megalosaur. Here a family-tree: ![]() I hope this should make clear the arguments, so that we have the arguments on both sides. |
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| JD-man | Feb 11 2013, 08:18 AM Post #43 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Just making sure.
1stly, I didn't deny the possibility that Sciurumimus was a megalosaur, but said that it was probably a coelurosaur, given the evidence (E.g. As Cau showed, the traits you listed are probably plesiomorphic tetanuran traits). Likewise, I didn't deny the possibility that Concavenator had proto-feathered arms, but said that it probably lacked them, given the evidence (E.g. As Naish showed, the structures of Concavenator are inconsistent w/the quill knobs of maniraptorans). 2ndly, while I may be overly cautious, you seem to be overly incautious in that, from the looks of it, you're jumping on every possibly feathered/proto-feathered fossil as evidence of feathers/proto-feathers in dinos ancestrally regardless of its validity (No offense, just saying). This is especially so when you say things like, "the normal state among dinosaurs is to be feathered". BTW, it's worth mentioning that, contra the quoted phlogeny in my previous post, most phylogenies in recent years have recovered coelurids as tyrannosauroids & compsognathids as closer to birds than tyrannosauroids are (E.g. Senter 2007, Choiniere et al. 2010, Zanno & Makovicky 2010, etc.). Edited by JD-man, Feb 12 2013, 01:49 PM.
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| theropod | Feb 11 2013, 09:13 AM Post #44 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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the "probably" is what I was responding too, I think stating it was probable (=more likely than the other theories) basing on blog posts is too much. No offense, I think you simply are too cautious. The whole reasoning seems to base on a stantpoint like "how can we explain that it had feathers even tough it isn't supposed to". I think the evidence feathers were ancestral to dinosaurs is very persuasive, not to say overwhelming, regardless of the exact anatomy and phylogeny in specimens like Sciuromimus or Concavenator. Those are merely further reinforcements, we have enough other evidence that deomstrate my points. Therefore it is by no means incautious to assume feathers, it is cautious. Assuming they did not have them is incautious, since so far no real evidence exists against their presence in all of ornithodira, while there's plenty of it for filaments as plesiomorphic condition. The burden of proof is on those who claim those were NO filaments, not on those who say they are. You should turn around and view this from another perspective, filaments are the integument that should be automatically assumed and only doubted on the basis of hard evidence, not the other way around. Edited by theropod, Jun 14 2013, 11:31 PM.
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| SpinoInWonderland | Oct 15 2013, 12:59 PM Post #45 |
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The madness has come back...
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You still believe this so I can reply. Well the answer for that is... N O
And after all this time, you have yet to provide evidence of pterosaur pycnofibres being homologous to coelurosaurian feathers. |
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looks far cooler





9:43 AM Jul 11