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Do you believe animals are equal to humans?
Topic Started: Dec 10 2012, 11:41 AM (15,920 Views)
The Unrepentant Misanthrope
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Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
 
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 06:15 AM
Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 05:29 AM
Quote:
 
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 12:00 AM
"...all other animals" do not care about their own species. If your hypothetical mother rhino saw a lion attacking another rhino's calf I very much doubt if she would intervene. Solitary animals care about themselves, social ones extend that care to their family/pack/herd members, none give a stuff about their species as a whole.
Yes, but if they had to choose which species they valued most, they would most likely pick their own species.

Given that they can't make such a choice, this is rather like speculating about the number of angels capable of dancing on the head of a pin.
I was particularly referring to humans.

You specifically stated 'if THEY (Non-humans) had to choose', not if WE (humans) had to choose. We are capable of making a deliberate choice, they are not, which is the point I am trying to make.
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Black Ice
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Rashido
Dec 11 2012, 06:58 AM
Family pets can mean just as much as a person. If someone literally offered me a billion dollars to abandon my dog, I would spit in their face. Relationships transcend material objects, at least for me.
Same here, I'd kill a human before even thinking of killing my husky.
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coherentsheaf
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Fragillimus335
Dec 11 2012, 06:59 AM
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 06:25 AM
Congratulations FelinePowah on your receipt of such a courteous response from that sterling example of manners personified, the one and (hopefully) only Fragillimus335.
Why thank you good sir, even though you are not the most pleasant person, or the most emphatic, I would still save you over the dolphins, that is what being sentient is all about.
Is sentience the criterion you go by?
How do you define it?
(Not a retorical question, I ask out of interest. While reading this thread I could not come up with specific criteria.)

Edit: Bonus question: How many non human animal lifes are as valuable as a human life? 1000? 10 000? 1 000 000 000 000 000? Or can no possible amount of animal suffering be compared to human suffering? The last proposition seems to go against the practise of preventing poachers sometimes even with violence and inconveniencing sadists who are forbidden to torture animals.
Edited by coherentsheaf, Dec 11 2012, 07:12 AM.
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Ausar
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titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 07:01 AM
Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
 
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 06:15 AM
Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 05:29 AM
Quote:
 
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 12:00 AM
"...all other animals" do not care about their own species. If your hypothetical mother rhino saw a lion attacking another rhino's calf I very much doubt if she would intervene. Solitary animals care about themselves, social ones extend that care to their family/pack/herd members, none give a stuff about their species as a whole.
Yes, but if they had to choose which species they valued most, they would most likely pick their own species.

Given that they can't make such a choice, this is rather like speculating about the number of angels capable of dancing on the head of a pin.
I was particularly referring to humans.

You specifically stated 'if THEY (Non-humans) had to choose', not if WE (humans) had to choose. We are capable of making a deliberate choice, they are not, which is the point I am trying to make.
I could have just as well been referring to ANY animal when I said THEY. Of course they can't think for themselves. But the thing is, the majority of humans would pick their species over others.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 11 2012, 07:13 AM.
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Ausar
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Black Ice
Dec 11 2012, 07:03 AM
Rashido
Dec 11 2012, 06:58 AM
Family pets can mean just as much as a person. If someone literally offered me a billion dollars to abandon my dog, I would spit in their face. Relationships transcend material objects, at least for me.
Same here, I'd kill a human before even thinking of killing my husky.
I'd probably do the same if I still had my pets.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 11 2012, 07:48 AM.
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Tyrant
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for all of those who have said humans and animals are all equal, tell me do you cry or feel sad whenever you smack a fly or mosquito, cause you'd probably cry if you killed a human, just cuz he/she annoyed you.


Do you cry every second of your life? Cause if you don't you obviously don't care about humans as much as you claim. Every few minutes hundreds of people we don't know die, some peacefully, some painfully. Anybody here who says they actually care about every single "innocent" human being on earth is either lying or deluding themselves.

Quote:
 
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.


I will ask again why is a human so much more valuable than a dolphin? If we go by the average person's perspective their is no reason to choose a human over a dolphin since both creatures are completely SENTIENT. Sure the latter is generally less intelligent but to say that a human is more important because they are somewhat smarter is like saying that the death of man with Forest Grump IQ would be less tragic than the demise of a "normal" person.

Unlike you I place my values on individuals not race(though by default I respect all animals on the same level). For example if I had to choose between killing a beloved family member or a feral dog I would unhesitantly choose the former, but at the same time if some common thug in New York city threatened the life of one my pets I would instantly tear his throat out.

If I had to choose between Steve Irwin and the stringray that killed him I would pick the former as he has effected the lives of thousands of animals positively

I'd rather see your average mugger/raciest redneck get flattened by a train then the common house fly as the latter will never have malevolent intentions and can potentially feed thousands of animals when it has finished breeding.

IMO the belief that humans are inherently better than other animals is nothing short of arrogant. Value should be determined by what acts an individual has done during the course of its life, not by what species of vagina it has been spewed out of.




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Black Ice
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Tyrant
Dec 11 2012, 07:13 AM
Quote:
 
for all of those who have said humans and animals are all equal, tell me do you cry or feel sad whenever you smack a fly or mosquito, cause you'd probably cry if you killed a human, just cuz he/she annoyed you.


Do you cry every second of your life? Cause if you don't you obviously don't care about humans as much as you claim. Every few minutes hundreds of people we don't know die, some peacefully, some painfully. Anybody here who says they actually care about every single "innocent" human being on earth is either lying or deluding themselves.

Quote:
 
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.


I will ask again why is a human so much more valuable than a dolphin? If we go by the average person's perspective their is no reason to choose a human over a dolphin since both creatures are completely SENTIENT. Sure the latter is generally less intelligent but to say that a human is more important because they are somewhat smarter is like saying that the death of man with Forest Grump IQ would be less tragic than the demise of a "normal" person.

Unlike you I place my values on individuals not race(though by default I respect all animals on the same level). For example if I had to choose between killing a beloved family member or a feral dog I would unhesitantly choose the former, but at the same time if some common thug in New York city threatened the life of one my pets I would instantly tear his throat out.

If I had to choose between Steve Irwin and the stringray that killed him I would pick the former as he has effected the lives of thousands of animals positively

I'd rather see your average mugger/raciest redneck get flattened by a train then the common house fly as the latter will never have malevolent intentions and can potentially feed thousands of animals when it has finished breeding.

IMO the belief that humans are inherently better than other animals is nothing short of arrogant. Value should be determined by what acts an individual has done during the course of its life, not by what species of vagina it has been spewed out of.




Perfect reply. I agree one hundred.
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The Unrepentant Misanthrope
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Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 05:33 AM
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You know what confuses me? We're animals too, so why don't animal rights groups like PETA or HSUS help save the millions of people that are homeless, starving, or sick? Why don't they have human welfare as one of their issues like they do with animal abuse?

For the same reason that human rights groups like Amnesty International, Oxfam etc. don't help save the millions of non-humans that are strayed, abused, starving, under threat of deliberate speciescide or sick, and don't have non-human welfare as one of their issues. They have no remit to do so.
Next question please.
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Rashido
Omnivore
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Tyrant
Dec 11 2012, 07:13 AM
Quote:
 
for all of those who have said humans and animals are all equal, tell me do you cry or feel sad whenever you smack a fly or mosquito, cause you'd probably cry if you killed a human, just cuz he/she annoyed you.


Do you cry every second of your life? Cause if you don't you obviously don't care about humans as much as you claim. Every few minutes hundreds of people we don't know die, some peacefully, some painfully. Anybody here who says they actually care about every single "innocent" human being on earth is either lying or deluding themselves.

Quote:
 
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.


I will ask again why is a human so much more valuable than a dolphin? If we go by the average person's perspective their is no reason to choose a human over a dolphin since both creatures are completely SENTIENT. Sure the latter is generally less intelligent but to say that a human is more important because they are somewhat smarter is like saying that the death of man with Forest Grump IQ would be less tragic than the demise of a "normal" person.

Unlike you I place my values on individuals not race(though by default I respect all animals on the same level). For example if I had to choose between killing a beloved family member or a feral dog I would unhesitantly choose the former, but at the same time if some common thug in New York city threatened the life of one my pets I would instantly tear his throat out.

If I had to choose between Steve Irwin and the stringray that killed him I would pick the former as he has effected the lives of thousands of animals positively

I'd rather see your average mugger/raciest redneck get flattened by a train then the common house fly as the latter will never have malevolent intentions and can potentially feed thousands of animals when it has finished breeding.

IMO the belief that humans are inherently better than other animals is nothing short of arrogant. Value should be determined by what acts an individual has done during the course of its life, not by what species of vagina it has been spewed out of.




Exactly my thoughts.
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Ausar
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Black Ice
Dec 11 2012, 07:17 AM
Tyrant
Dec 11 2012, 07:13 AM
Quote:
 
for all of those who have said humans and animals are all equal, tell me do you cry or feel sad whenever you smack a fly or mosquito, cause you'd probably cry if you killed a human, just cuz he/she annoyed you.


Do you cry every second of your life? Cause if you don't you obviously don't care about humans as much as you claim. Every few minutes hundreds of people we don't know die, some peacefully, some painfully. Anybody here who says they actually care about every single "innocent" human being on earth is either lying or deluding themselves.

Quote:
 
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.


I will ask again why is a human so much more valuable than a dolphin? If we go by the average person's perspective their is no reason to choose a human over a dolphin since both creatures are completely SENTIENT. Sure the latter is generally less intelligent but to say that a human is more important because they are somewhat smarter is like saying that the death of man with Forest Grump IQ would be less tragic than the demise of a "normal" person.

Unlike you I place my values on individuals not race(though by default I respect all animals on the same level). For example if I had to choose between killing a beloved family member or a feral dog I would unhesitantly choose the former, but at the same time if some common thug in New York city threatened the life of one my pets I would instantly tear his throat out.

If I had to choose between Steve Irwin and the stringray that killed him I would pick the former as he has effected the lives of thousands of animals positively

I'd rather see your average mugger/raciest redneck get flattened by a train then the common house fly as the latter will never have malevolent intentions and can potentially feed thousands of animals when it has finished breeding.

IMO the belief that humans are inherently better than other animals is nothing short of arrogant. Value should be determined by what acts an individual has done during the course of its life, not by what species of vagina it has been spewed out of.




Perfect reply. I agree one hundred.
Hold it. You said on the first page that you agreed with what I said at the beginning. Now you're saying you completely agree with Tyrant. And Tyrant's views and mine couldn't be any more different aside from rather killing a person than our pets. Isn't that contradictory?
Edited by Ausar, Dec 11 2012, 07:47 AM.
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Ausar
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Tyrant
Dec 11 2012, 07:13 AM
Quote:
 
for all of those who have said humans and animals are all equal, tell me do you cry or feel sad whenever you smack a fly or mosquito, cause you'd probably cry if you killed a human, just cuz he/she annoyed you.


Do you cry every second of your life? Cause if you don't you obviously don't care about humans as much as you claim. Every few minutes hundreds of people we don't know die, some peacefully, some painfully. Anybody here who says they actually care about every single "innocent" human being on earth is either lying or deluding themselves.

Quote:
 
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.


I will ask again why is a human so much more valuable than a dolphin? If we go by the average person's perspective their is no reason to choose a human over a dolphin since both creatures are completely SENTIENT. Sure the latter is generally less intelligent but to say that a human is more important because they are somewhat smarter is like saying that the death of man with Forest Grump IQ would be less tragic than the demise of a "normal" person.

Unlike you I place my values on individuals not race(though by default I respect all animals on the same level). For example if I had to choose between killing a beloved family member or a feral dog I would unhesitantly choose the former, but at the same time if some common thug in New York city threatened the life of one my pets I would instantly tear his throat out.

If I had to choose between Steve Irwin and the stringray that killed him I would pick the former as he has effected the lives of thousands of animals positively

I'd rather see your average mugger/raciest redneck get flattened by a train then the common house fly as the latter will never have malevolent intentions and can potentially feed thousands of animals when it has finished breeding.

IMO the belief that humans are inherently better than other animals is nothing short of arrogant. Value should be determined by what acts an individual has done during the course of its life, not by what species of vagina it has been spewed out of.




So you would rather kill a beloved family member than a feral dog without hesitation. And you would rather kill a thug than a pet without hesitation. (I myself would do the same if referring to the latter). There's no need for a "but at the same time". They're basically the same example only with different people and animals. And you're first point; by this logic people who don't cry every second don't really care about animals either. I guarantee that even you don't cry every second of your life for all the animals dying out there every second. I don't think ANYONE does. But that doesn't mean you don't care about animals as much as you claim.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 11 2012, 07:41 AM.
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The Unrepentant Misanthrope
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Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 06:44 AM
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So does that automatically mean you would be better off with a dolphin or a dog or a cat? IMO not really. You still can't really talk to them, make friends with them or anything else you can do with a fellow human being. There's a reason why people make friends; that's so they don't talk to themselves, inanimate objects, or animals that can't respond to you, but a fellow human can. If you were to spend a long time talking to an animal or inanimate object you would eventually go insane.

IMNSH opinion yes truly. I did spend a long time, approximately half a lifetime in fact, interacting with certain of my fellow humans and I almost DID go insane, my medical records attest to that.
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Ausar
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titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 07:30 AM
Asaurus
Dec 11 2012, 06:44 AM
Quote:
 
So does that automatically mean you would be better off with a dolphin or a dog or a cat? IMO not really. You still can't really talk to them, make friends with them or anything else you can do with a fellow human being. There's a reason why people make friends; that's so they don't talk to themselves, inanimate objects, or animals that can't respond to you, but a fellow human can. If you were to spend a long time talking to an animal or inanimate object you would eventually go insane.

IMNSH opinion yes truly. I did spend a long time, approximately half a lifetime in fact, interacting with certain of my fellow humans and I almost DID go insane, my medical records attest to that.
But I don't see how you would fare any better around animals though. That's my point when I was arguing with you. Honestly, if I spent a long time with something like a dolphin and nothing more, it would just be a matter of who I would kill first. Probably myself.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 11 2012, 07:38 AM.
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Vivec
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Fragillimus335
Dec 11 2012, 05:42 AM
ZetaQuetzalcoatlus
Dec 11 2012, 05:33 AM
Fragillimus335
Dec 11 2012, 05:26 AM
titanoceratops
Dec 11 2012, 12:10 AM
What if the 1,000 dolphins you would be willing to murder belonged to an endangered species and amounted to 90% of the total world population?
I would, of course, still kill the dolphins. I doubt anyone on this forum would actually chose to kill another human being instead of some dolphins, if yo do, you got some evolving left to do.... Everyone who says they respect animals just as much as people is either full of shit or just saying it for shock value.

I wouldn't be happy about killing the dolphins, but I would do it to save a human life.
Oh my god.
Your god was pretty keen on animal sacrifices... :D No offense...it's true.

What you're saying is that you would pick up a gun, and blow a little girl's brains out to save a pod of dolphins.... You need to think that through a little better.
Ughh...It's a figure of speech, I'm an atheist

What is it that makes other animals less important? Anyone who kills their dog over a whiny screaming child should be shot personally. We aren't more important just because we have been cursed with the ability to speak, if you walked up to a Fly and it could talk and you said that you were more important do you think the fly would agree? No. We have caused more damage to the earth in one month than all other animals have caused in all their years on this planet. Animals are equal to us if not more important.
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Fragillimus335
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Black Ice
Dec 11 2012, 07:03 AM
Rashido
Dec 11 2012, 06:58 AM
Family pets can mean just as much as a person. If someone literally offered me a billion dollars to abandon my dog, I would spit in their face. Relationships transcend material objects, at least for me.
Same here, I'd kill a human before even thinking of killing my husky.
You guys are sociopathic monsters, (I guess a am on an internet forum)...but I truly presume you would think differently if it actually came to that.
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