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Saurophaganax maximus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM (59,198 Views)
DinosaurMichael
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Apex Predator
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Saurophaganax maximus
Saurophaganax ("lizard-eating master") is a genus of allosaurid dinosaur from the Morrison Formation of Late Jurassic Oklahoma (latest Kimmeridgian age, about 151 million years ago). Some paleontologists consider it to be a species of Allosaurus (A. maximus). Saurophaganax represents a very large (13 metres (43 ft) long). Saurophaganax was one of the largest carnivores of Late Jurassic North America. Ray even gave an estimate of the body length of fifteen metres and Chure of fourteen, though later estimations have been lower. The fossils known of Saurophaganax (both the possible New Mexican material and the Oklahoma material) are known from the latest part of the Morrison formation, suggesting that they were either always uncommon or appeared rather late in the fossil record. Saurophaganax was large for an allosaurid, and bigger than both its contemporaries Torvosaurus tanneri and Allosaurus fragilis. Being much rarer than its contemporaries, making up one percent or less of the Morrison theropod fauna, not much about its behavior is known. Stovall in Oklahoma also unearthed a considerable number of Apatosaurus specimens, a possible prey for a large theropod.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM.
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blaze
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W. Scott Persons, Philip J. Currie. (2010) The Tail of Tyrannosaurus: Reassessing the Size and Locomotive Importance of the M. caudofemoralis in Non-Avian Theropods.

There's a nice post on the subject on David Hone's blog. And you're right, Hartman seems to be aware of it.

I don't know if Hutchinson et al. (2011) mentions what software they used in the paper but in the comments they say blender.

Edited by blaze, Jan 7 2013, 10:35 PM.
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theropod
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Both metods seem to have their flaws. I'll thus stick to Hartmans one, as his sue appers to be the best we have and he is aware of the tail. I still think thevtrunk volume in the study was significantly enlarged due to the cranially swept ribs.

The pictures do indeed look like blender models, maybe using it one could check the figures, for example using hartmans skeletal and some top view. I should have had this idea earlier, but it never came to mind that it's possible to use blend for measuring volume. Seems like a much less time consuming metod than a GDI, but with the same result.
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Ausar
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If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
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theropod
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I don't think so, T'rex skull is basically compact bone, that's really the exact thing I don't think an impact and pull feeding slicer would be good at. if it bit muscles and tendons it could likely slice them up pretty badly, but in a face bite I'd say it probably just break some of its teeth without causing fatal wounds, sue and sta have been through worse skull bites from conspecifics.
Edited by theropod, Jan 8 2013, 08:11 AM.
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theropod
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http://www.artdds.com/studio/toolbox/vol_n_mass_calc/

:-)

If I find time I'll have a try whether this works, ought to be an easy way of making relatively accurate weight estimations.
Edited by theropod, Jan 8 2013, 08:42 AM.
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bone crusher
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Jan 8 2013, 07:45 AM
If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
Reversely, a face bite from Sue should bit off a good chunk of maxilla from Sauro and eventually killing it.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Asaurus
Jan 8 2013, 07:45 AM
If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
Not in 1 hit...but repeated strikes could
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theropod
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theropod
Jan 8 2013, 08:41 AM
http://www.artdds.com/studio/toolbox/vol_n_mass_calc/

:-)

If I find time I'll have a try whether this works, ought to be an easy way of making relatively accurate weight estimations.
Unfortunately I don´t get the plugin to show up in blender.
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SpinoInWonderland
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bone crusher
Jan 8 2013, 02:45 PM
Asaurus
Jan 8 2013, 07:45 AM
If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
Reversely, a face bite from Sue should bit off a good chunk of maxilla from Sauro and eventually killing it.
Saurophaganax could just rear up to evade it then counterattack with the axe head from above
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SpinoInWonderland
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LophoFan14
Jan 9 2013, 10:24 PM
Another fanboy war
Well, that happens every time Tyrannosaurus is put up against another giant theropod...
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Godzillasaurus
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bone crusher
Jan 8 2013, 02:45 PM
Asaurus
Jan 8 2013, 07:45 AM
If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
Reversely, a face bite from Sue should bit off a good chunk of maxilla from Sauro and eventually killing it.
I wouldn't say "bite off" as much as "crush". Tyrannosaurs were adapted for crushing.
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 9 2013, 12:12 PM
bone crusher
Jan 8 2013, 02:45 PM
Asaurus
Jan 8 2013, 07:45 AM
If Saurophaganax did the ax attack on T.rex's skull, would that kill Big T?
Reversely, a face bite from Sue should bit off a good chunk of maxilla from Sauro and eventually killing it.
Saurophaganax could just rear up to evade it then counterattack with the axe head from above
T-rex can rear up aswell, than the height advantsge is gone, so I don't think this will be easy.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Jan 10 2013, 04:29 AM.
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Temnospondyl
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Edited by Temnospondyl, Jan 11 2013, 05:32 PM.
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theropod
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http://svpow.com/2013/04/19/friday-phalanges-megaraptor-vs-saurophaganax/

Wanna see a 30+cm robust meathook (without keratine added) with a gigantic flexor tubercle? Most of this post seems to be a parody of this forum actually, but to my understanding that comparison is real, and we might not even be talking about a large Saurophaganax here. Who was that who thought these things were useless?

I have a really hard time imagining an animal would develope such tremendously large and robust claws with strong attachment points just for nothing. Now keep in mind even T. rex supposedly could lift 200kg with its arm. What about a Saurophaganax arm that is at least twice as long and far more robustly contructed, bearing such claws? Even if it had the same proportions it would be four times as strong, and it was probably far more.

Theropod arms are a factor in a fight, no matter what you say. if there's two arms each capable of holding upwards of 800kg (!? that must be it if T. rex could lift 200kg...) hooking into something,they won't just let go so easily. I can understand that Allosauridae must have evolved them to claw into sauropods.

They don't appear to be killing weapons of their own, but they are still dangerous, especially in combination with the jaws. This does not mean I favour Saurophaganax in this fight, I don't unless it is weight parity, which is rather unlikely, but I want to show how some people underrate the weaponery of allosauridae.
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Big G
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Both were 12 meters long, but the Tyrannosaurus weighed a ton more. 55/45 in favor of the Tyrannosaurus.
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