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Saurophaganax maximus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM (59,197 Views)
DinosaurMichael
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Saurophaganax maximus
Saurophaganax ("lizard-eating master") is a genus of allosaurid dinosaur from the Morrison Formation of Late Jurassic Oklahoma (latest Kimmeridgian age, about 151 million years ago). Some paleontologists consider it to be a species of Allosaurus (A. maximus). Saurophaganax represents a very large (13 metres (43 ft) long). Saurophaganax was one of the largest carnivores of Late Jurassic North America. Ray even gave an estimate of the body length of fifteen metres and Chure of fourteen, though later estimations have been lower. The fossils known of Saurophaganax (both the possible New Mexican material and the Oklahoma material) are known from the latest part of the Morrison formation, suggesting that they were either always uncommon or appeared rather late in the fossil record. Saurophaganax was large for an allosaurid, and bigger than both its contemporaries Torvosaurus tanneri and Allosaurus fragilis. Being much rarer than its contemporaries, making up one percent or less of the Morrison theropod fauna, not much about its behavior is known. Stovall in Oklahoma also unearthed a considerable number of Apatosaurus specimens, a possible prey for a large theropod.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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MrGiganotosaurus
Apr 20 2013, 09:22 PM
Both were 12 meters long, but the Tyrannosaurus weighed a ton more. 55/45 in favor of the Tyrannosaurus.
Actually, Saurophaganax was a meter longer(13 meters) and had the same mass as the average Tyrannosaurus(around 6 tonnes)

http://dml.cmnh.org/2002Aug/msg00194.html

But apparently, people would do anything just to make their beloved Tyrannosaurus win always...
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blaze
Carnivore
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That was made over a decade ago...

People have debated that with you for far too long, it is not a fact, the only way to make Saurophaganx that big is to grab a single bone, assume it's the only material of an individual far bigger than all the others in the quarry and use short armed specimens of Allosaurus some 5 million years older to scale that bone.

There's already an scale in the previous pages showing that even "best case scenario" Saurophaganax is no match for a large T. rex.

@theropod
Since those impostors spammed svpow it seems Matt Wedel looks us with contempt :( though I understand from where he's coming from, I completely understand what he means by "kaiju-loving fanboys" ... I'm gonna go watch War of the Gargantuas now.
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theropod
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Sad, but it's not surprising and I guess its justified.
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Big G
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brolyeuphyfusion
Apr 21 2013, 01:29 AM
MrGiganotosaurus
Apr 20 2013, 09:22 PM
Both were 12 meters long, but the Tyrannosaurus weighed a ton more. 55/45 in favor of the Tyrannosaurus.
Actually, Saurophaganax was a meter longer(13 meters) and had the same mass as the average Tyrannosaurus(around 6 tonnes)

http://dml.cmnh.org/2002Aug/msg00194.html

But apparently, people would do anything just to make their beloved Tyrannosaurus win always...
In fact, the weight of "Sue" reaches perhaps the 9 tons, then a Tyrannosaurus weighs substantially more than the Saurophaganax, and a weight average, at more than 8 tons, would be about 7 tons, exactly 1 ton about more than in Saurophaganax. As for the length, can also be in more than one meter, but if does not exceeds the Tyrannosaurus in mass, there is little to do for the Saurophaganax.

PS: I do not like the Tyrannosaurus. If I have to choose my favorite dinosaur is the Giganotosaurus, but I'm not a fanboy, it's T. Rex it's Giganotosaurus. I say what I think.
Edited by Big G, Apr 21 2013, 02:55 AM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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MrGiganotosaurus
Apr 21 2013, 02:54 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Apr 21 2013, 01:29 AM
MrGiganotosaurus
Apr 20 2013, 09:22 PM
Both were 12 meters long, but the Tyrannosaurus weighed a ton more. 55/45 in favor of the Tyrannosaurus.
Actually, Saurophaganax was a meter longer(13 meters) and had the same mass as the average Tyrannosaurus(around 6 tonnes)

http://dml.cmnh.org/2002Aug/msg00194.html

But apparently, people would do anything just to make their beloved Tyrannosaurus win always...
In fact, the weight of "Sue" reaches perhaps the 9 tons, then a Tyrannosaurus weighs substantially more than the Saurophaganax, and a weight average, at more than 8 tons, would be about 7 tons, exactly 1 ton about more than in Saurophaganax. As for the length, can also be in more than one meter, but if does not exceeds the Tyrannosaurus in mass, there is little to do for the Saurophaganax.

PS: I do not like the Tyrannosaurus. If I have to choose my favorite dinosaur is the Giganotosaurus, but I'm not a fanboy, it's T. Rex it's Giganotosaurus. I say what I think.
The 9-tonne Tyrannosaurus is a fat model, and Sue was about 6.4 tonnes, and was the largest confirmed specimen.

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The average Tyrannosaurus isn't really more massive than Saurophaganax...
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Apr 21 2013, 02:49 AM
Sad, but it's not surprising and I guess its justified.
I tought they now know that the broly and Fragilimus posting under their blogs were fakers.

@brolyeuphyfusion
Scott Hartmann also stated Saurophaganax to be 12 m long.
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6435/33020541542631293761995.jpg
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theropod
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That comparison wasn't made by Hartman, it was made by Gecko or Grey I think.

Hartman only fairly recently started making comparisonal charts, and so far he hasn't used something as exotic as a Saurophaganax.

Yeah, they do, but its not as if this forum wasn't full of fanboyism and childish bias.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 21 2013, 03:09 AM
@brolyeuphyfusion
Scott Hartmann also stated Saurophaganax to be 12 m long.
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6435/33020541542631293761995.jpg
That's Scott Hartman's Allosaurus specimen DINO 2560 skeletal, scaled to have a 545 mm humerus, he never made a Saurophaganax skeletal...and he didn't make that comparison either, just some of the skeletals...

Generally, larger theropods have proportionally smaller arms, so I would use Big Al instead...
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Apr 21 2013, 03:13 AM
That comparison wasn't made by Hartman, it was made by Gecko or Grey I think.
Well, Grey said this, when posting that scale:
Grey
 
Another comparison by Hartman. I use only his original creations and not modify them like it was done in Carnivora.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 21 2013, 03:20 AM
theropod
Apr 21 2013, 03:13 AM
That comparison wasn't made by Hartman, it was made by Gecko or Grey I think.
Well, Grey said this, when posting that scale:
Grey
 
Another comparison by Hartman. I use only his original creations and not modify them like it was done in Carnivora.
Then Grey is wrong. Try searching Scott Hartman's deviantart gallery or his skeletaldrawing site for a Saurophaganax skeletal, and guess what? There are none.

You put too much trust on that Grey guy, really dude?
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SpinoInWonderland
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theropod
Apr 21 2013, 03:13 AM
Yeah, they do, but its not as if this forum wasn't full of fanboyism and childish bias.
I fully agree, you just need to look at the poll of this thread and any "Tyrannosaurus vs other giant theropod" thread to see...
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theropod
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 21 2013, 03:20 AM
theropod
Apr 21 2013, 03:13 AM
That comparison wasn't made by Hartman, it was made by Gecko or Grey I think.
Well, Grey said this, when posting that scale:
Grey
 
Another comparison by Hartman. I use only his original creations and not modify them like it was done in Carnivora.
Most here don't do so either, I can only think of one single time broly modified his spinosaurus skeletal to have a smaller head.


What you can see is that the femur lenght for sue is not the one Shartman now states, and he certainly wouldn't use the same skeletal for sue and the T. rex holotype. The size comparisons he made himself look very different from this one and he has never posted it on either deviantart or his blog, which I suppose he would have done if it was his. What grey must have meant is not that the size chart is Hartman's, he just meant he scaled these animals as they where in his skeletals to the given sizes (of course scaling to axial lenght figures is not a good ideaThey're not originally scaled to axial lenght and the actual lenght is not what is shown in the text)

EDIT: when I first saw it I could have sworn it was gecko's, and it actually is, with captions added:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8369331&t=9687409

Edited by theropod, Apr 21 2013, 03:54 AM.
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blaze
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That's Gecko's, yes.

broly, that size chart from Hartman is from 2004, can't you see how much his skeletals have changed? the 9 tonne Sue is not fat, get over it. Explain to me then how Sue dwarfs a supposedly 8 tonne Sarcosuchus or a 6 tonne elephant? you claim Paul's reconstructions are anorexic yet you take an old estimate only 300 kg heavier and tout it as gospel; that's the equivalent of saying a 50kg guy is anorexic but an equally sized 52kg guy is in the prime of his physical condition.

btw, look at the Carcharodontosaurus vs Saurophaganax thread, even your preferred method to scale S. maximus only makes it some 11m long now.
Edited by blaze, Apr 21 2013, 09:45 AM.
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MysteryMeat
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Hartman didn't make a skeletal for Saurophaganax for a reason, it's too fragmentary.
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Spinodontosaurus
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Whether you wish to trust the 9000kg estimates or not, completely dismissing them because you interpret them as 'fat' (when they aren't really) is foolish.

And be consistent in which estimates you put weight on. Just because Therrein and Henderson estimated Tyrannosaurus at 9 tonnes whilst Dal Sasso also estimated Spinosaurus at 9 tonnes using completely different methology does not mean that both animals are 9 tonnes.
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