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| Saurophaganax maximus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM (59,211 Views) | |
| DinosaurMichael | Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM Post #1 |
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Apex Predator
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Saurophaganax maximus Saurophaganax ("lizard-eating master") is a genus of allosaurid dinosaur from the Morrison Formation of Late Jurassic Oklahoma (latest Kimmeridgian age, about 151 million years ago). Some paleontologists consider it to be a species of Allosaurus (A. maximus). Saurophaganax represents a very large (13 metres (43 ft) long). Saurophaganax was one of the largest carnivores of Late Jurassic North America. Ray even gave an estimate of the body length of fifteen metres and Chure of fourteen, though later estimations have been lower. The fossils known of Saurophaganax (both the possible New Mexican material and the Oklahoma material) are known from the latest part of the Morrison formation, suggesting that they were either always uncommon or appeared rather late in the fossil record. Saurophaganax was large for an allosaurid, and bigger than both its contemporaries Torvosaurus tanneri and Allosaurus fragilis. Being much rarer than its contemporaries, making up one percent or less of the Morrison theropod fauna, not much about its behavior is known. Stovall in Oklahoma also unearthed a considerable number of Apatosaurus specimens, a possible prey for a large theropod. ![]() Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.
Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM.
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| SpinoInWonderland | Dec 15 2012, 10:49 PM Post #16 |
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The madness has come back...
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I know that, but the more birdlike a dinosaur is, the more pneumatic and they are, in not just the bones, but air sac systems in the body as well |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Dec 15 2012, 10:50 PM Post #17 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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I don't think T-rex has to worry a lot about robusticity, it's has a stronger bite, so I don't think it's teeth are less robust, at least not a lot. And Verdugo already gave a source for Tyrannosaurid tooth strength: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8425232&t=9782364 |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Dec 15 2012, 10:50 PM Post #18 |
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The madness has come back...
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That's so unfortunate... |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 10:52 PM Post #19 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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sorry, i meant that in relation to carcharodontosaurid teeth. T. rex is a crusher, so the teeth serve a totally different purpose. Edited by theropod, Dec 15 2012, 10:52 PM.
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| Jinfengopteryx | Dec 15 2012, 10:52 PM Post #20 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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blaze has: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8425263&t=9782364 |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 10:56 PM Post #21 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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I wonder were he got it from. It doesn´t seem to be available anywhere on the web, and all the data are contradictory |
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| bone crusher | Dec 15 2012, 10:57 PM Post #22 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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A 15m Saurophaganax would still be lighter than Sue, T Rex wins this for weight advantage, bite force, more heavily built and more agile. |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Dec 15 2012, 10:59 PM Post #23 |
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The madness has come back...
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sure mr spinosaurus vs tyrannosaurus is 50/50 You just have a grudge against non-tyrannosaur theropods... |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 11:01 PM Post #24 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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^^ lol, that was funny. No way a 15m saurophaganax wouldn´t be significantly heavier than sue. You canNOT just use the highest figure for T. rex and conservative ones for other animals. If you use the 9t T. rex, what about using the 1,5t big al, which yields 12t for a 15m Allosaurus? Anyway, I don´t believe in a 15m Saurophaganax. 15m allosaurs seem likely tough. Edited by theropod, Dec 15 2012, 11:02 PM.
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| SpinoInWonderland | Dec 15 2012, 11:04 PM Post #25 |
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The madness has come back...
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You have Saurophaganax at 15 meters in your website http://www.paleo.keepfree.de/palaeontology/images.html, then you say you don't believe in it? |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Dec 15 2012, 11:25 PM Post #26 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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He took it as possible maximum. |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Dec 15 2012, 11:29 PM Post #27 |
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The madness has come back...
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If he didn't believe it, he wouldn't have taken it at all... |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 11:40 PM Post #28 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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I took it as including the ichnotaxa I mentioned for several times, but there is no evidence they are Saurophaganax. I just used them because it´s easier to include them in a related taxon that is the closest in size than to write "huge unnamed ichnotaxa from Morroco and Spain" every single time. 15m for Saurophaganax seem totally hypothetical. imo 13m is fine as I don´t think it would have proportionally bigger arms than big al or the topotype. A range of 12,5-13,5m seems fine, 14m is a liberal max estimate, 12m and below quite conservative. I do absolutely believe there were some allosaurs, maybe even the same as Saurophaganax (actually it seems rather conservative considering the footprint is 90cm long, enough to rule out slight distortions or things like that), that maxed out at 15m, but considering them Saurophaganax is speculation, that´s why I´m unsure what size to use. |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 11:43 PM Post #29 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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and broly, believing and having evidence are totally different things, I guess we all probably agree that large theropods wheren´t limited to the sizes we know of, but that some large specimens were probably a good deal larger? I think we have decent evidence for this huge allosaur, but it isn´t sufficient to say whether it is any known genus or a new one. Until we know somethign more precise, I do not include it in Saurophaganax-matchups. and if someone includes a hypothetical max figure in a scale, that doesn´t mean the person would also use it in matchups. |
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| theropod | Dec 15 2012, 11:57 PM Post #30 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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All are vs sue (12,3m and 6,4t): <13m conservative Saurophaganax: T. rex >65/35-T. rex with absolute ease 13m (5.5t) Saurophaganax: T. rex 65/35 14m (6,9t) liberal Saurophaganax: Saurophaganax 60/40 weight parity: Saurophaganax 51% (my definition of a slight edge) 15m (8,5t) allosaur: allosaur with absolute ease Using an average T. rex would of course alter the results but I also know we´d then need a reliable figure for average Saurophaganax-hard to come by for a fragmentary animal (of course PalaeoDB fails here, because the femur and humerus are from different specimens). EDIT: Just wanted to say that I agree mostly with the next post by @grey, except for the skulll thing Edited by theropod, Jan 4 2013, 05:57 AM.
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