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Saurophaganax maximus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM (59,211 Views)
DinosaurMichael
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Saurophaganax maximus
Saurophaganax ("lizard-eating master") is a genus of allosaurid dinosaur from the Morrison Formation of Late Jurassic Oklahoma (latest Kimmeridgian age, about 151 million years ago). Some paleontologists consider it to be a species of Allosaurus (A. maximus). Saurophaganax represents a very large (13 metres (43 ft) long). Saurophaganax was one of the largest carnivores of Late Jurassic North America. Ray even gave an estimate of the body length of fifteen metres and Chure of fourteen, though later estimations have been lower. The fossils known of Saurophaganax (both the possible New Mexican material and the Oklahoma material) are known from the latest part of the Morrison formation, suggesting that they were either always uncommon or appeared rather late in the fossil record. Saurophaganax was large for an allosaurid, and bigger than both its contemporaries Torvosaurus tanneri and Allosaurus fragilis. Being much rarer than its contemporaries, making up one percent or less of the Morrison theropod fauna, not much about its behavior is known. Stovall in Oklahoma also unearthed a considerable number of Apatosaurus specimens, a possible prey for a large theropod.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 15 2012, 10:02 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Dec 15 2012, 10:47 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 15 2012, 10:42 PM
imo, an average Tyrannosaurus is also 6 tonnes, Tyrannosaurus is a birdlike theropod that is lighter than it looks

And Saurophaganax can reach 14 meters and probably even 15 meters in length
All theropods have hollow bones, not just T-rex
I know that, but the more birdlike a dinosaur is, the more pneumatic and they are, in not just the bones, but air sac systems in the body as well
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Dec 15 2012, 10:45 PM
That´s a bit too simplyfied. Shorter teeth are more robust, because of the leverage and bending moments. Longer ones might be more effective for slicing as they can puncture deeper, but when the shorter ones can endure greater stress that makes up for it. Gape is a different thing, of course very long teeth make the funktional gape smaller (e.g smilodon), but in this case the difference is not that great.


I don't think T-rex has to worry a lot about robusticity, it's has a stronger bite, so I don't think it's teeth are less robust, at least not a lot. And Verdugo already gave a source for Tyrannosaurid tooth strength:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8425232&t=9782364
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SpinoInWonderland
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theropod
Dec 15 2012, 10:48 PM
no-one here has access to the paper
That's so unfortunate...
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theropod
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Jinfengopteryx
Dec 15 2012, 10:50 PM
theropod
Dec 15 2012, 10:45 PM
That´s a bit too simplyfied. Shorter teeth are more robust, because of the leverage and bending moments. Longer ones might be more effective for slicing as they can puncture deeper, but when the shorter ones can endure greater stress that makes up for it. Gape is a different thing, of course very long teeth make the funktional gape smaller (e.g smilodon), but in this case the difference is not that great.


I don't think T-rex has to worry a lot about robusticity, it's has a stronger bite, so I don't think it's teeth are less robust, at least not a lot. And Verdugo already gave a source for Tyrannosaurid tooth strength:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8425232&t=9782364
sorry, i meant that in relation to carcharodontosaurid teeth. T. rex is a crusher, so the teeth serve a totally different purpose.
Edited by theropod, Dec 15 2012, 10:52 PM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Dec 15 2012, 10:48 PM
no-one here has access to the paper as far as I know, it´s from 1941 and was published in some sort of magazine...

blaze has:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8425263&t=9782364
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theropod
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I wonder were he got it from. It doesn´t seem to be available anywhere on the web, and all the data are contradictory
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bone crusher
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A 15m Saurophaganax would still be lighter than Sue, T Rex wins this for weight advantage, bite force, more heavily built and more agile.
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SpinoInWonderland
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bone crusher
Dec 15 2012, 10:57 PM
A 15m Saurophaganax would still be lighter than Sue
sure mr spinosaurus vs tyrannosaurus is 50/50

You just have a grudge against non-tyrannosaur theropods...
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theropod
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^^ lol, that was funny. No way a 15m saurophaganax wouldn´t be significantly heavier than sue. You canNOT just use the highest figure for T. rex and conservative ones for other animals. If you use the 9t T. rex, what about using the 1,5t big al, which yields 12t for a 15m Allosaurus?

Anyway, I don´t believe in a 15m Saurophaganax. 15m allosaurs seem likely tough.
Edited by theropod, Dec 15 2012, 11:02 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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theropod
Dec 15 2012, 11:01 PM
I don´t believe in a 15m Saurophaganax
You have Saurophaganax at 15 meters in your website http://www.paleo.keepfree.de/palaeontology/images.html, then you say you don't believe in it?
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Jinfengopteryx
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He took it as possible maximum.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Dec 15 2012, 11:25 PM
He took it as possible maximum.
If he didn't believe it, he wouldn't have taken it at all...
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theropod
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I took it as including the ichnotaxa I mentioned for several times, but there is no evidence they are Saurophaganax. I just used them because it´s easier to include them in a related taxon that is the closest in size than to write "huge unnamed ichnotaxa from Morroco and Spain" every single time. 15m for Saurophaganax seem totally hypothetical. imo 13m is fine as I don´t think it would have proportionally bigger arms than big al or the topotype. A range of 12,5-13,5m seems fine, 14m is a liberal max estimate, 12m and below quite conservative.

I do absolutely believe there were some allosaurs, maybe even the same as Saurophaganax (actually it seems rather conservative considering the footprint is 90cm long, enough to rule out slight distortions or things like that), that maxed out at 15m, but considering them Saurophaganax is speculation, that´s why I´m unsure what size to use.
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theropod
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and broly, believing and having evidence are totally different things, I guess we all probably agree that large theropods wheren´t limited to the sizes we know of, but that some large specimens were probably a good deal larger?

I think we have decent evidence for this huge allosaur, but it isn´t sufficient to say whether it is any known genus or a new one. Until we know somethign more precise, I do not include it in Saurophaganax-matchups.

and if someone includes a hypothetical max figure in a scale, that doesn´t mean the person would also use it in matchups.
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theropod
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All are vs sue (12,3m and 6,4t):

<13m conservative Saurophaganax: T. rex >65/35-T. rex with absolute ease

13m (5.5t) Saurophaganax: T. rex 65/35

14m (6,9t) liberal Saurophaganax: Saurophaganax 60/40

weight parity: Saurophaganax 51% (my definition of a slight edge)

15m (8,5t) allosaur: allosaur with absolute ease

Using an average T. rex would of course alter the results but I also know we´d then need a reliable figure for average Saurophaganax-hard to come by for a fragmentary animal (of course PalaeoDB fails here, because the femur and humerus are from different specimens).

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I agree mostly with the next post by @grey, except for the skulll thing
Edited by theropod, Jan 4 2013, 05:57 AM.
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