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| Small dog and cat scrap;-) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 13 2013, 08:54 AM (3,541 Views) | |
| FelinePowah | May 14 2013, 03:42 AM Post #16 |
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Pussy Lover
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Cat size terriers dont. |
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| Vita | May 14 2013, 06:25 AM Post #17 |
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Cave Canem
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Well, normally no. But there is evidence of such so you're just wrong. |
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| Gato Gordo | May 14 2013, 07:25 AM Post #18 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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This is absolutely true. When folks say "small dog beats any house cat" they conveniently gloss over the fact that even small dogs are much heavier than house cats, specially house cats that are not obese or old/neutered and are in good physical shape. So, yes, small terrier dogs beat domestic/feral cats (even "Fifi" as Lycaon never tires of saying) because either Fifi or the working JRT are much larger: 6-8 kg JRT or similar vs 3-4 kg for typical domestic/feral tom that is not obese or neutered. I can testify to the smaller size of non-neutered or feral domestic toms, as a few months ago I adopted a feral cat and had it neutered. In the end the cat never adapted to sharing space with my other cats, so he escaped and never returned. It was a large feral cat but weighed only 4.2 kg, of pure muscle and fiber, compare to my neutered toms that weigh over 5-5.5 kg, yet he was much more aggressive and intimidated them. To be fair if facing this cat with a small dog at parity, we would have to find a toy breed, not a JRT or similar terriers that weigh AT LEAST 6 kg. Obviously, 6 or 7-8 kg is a lot of excess weight vs 4.2 kg. Having said this, the small terrier dogs even at parity (say vs a larger Scottish wild cat) still have morphological advantage and would have an edge over the cat, but if the fight is at REAL PARITY, it would not be a massacre (as Lycaon never tires to write) but a tough risky fight for the dog. And please spare me the hunting tales, as feral or wild cats facing a working terrier know that men are behind and are more concerned in fleeing than in fighting back. Yes, I know that some posters (Gun B before and now Lycaon) deny this, but I have made many counter-arguments to their denials and have reached the point to agree to disagree with them. |
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| manics | May 14 2013, 08:44 AM Post #19 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Hello Gato old friend you may like this David Attenborough documentary on a feral cat colony of Rome. The two dominant males Caesar and Brutus are a sight to behold and both very impressive specimens. A nice paper on the effect of Neutering on cat body mass. They don't get larger they just get fatter. Whats interesting is that the average mass of the feral cats was just 3.1kg, fairly typical of a feral cat colony. Sexes were mixed probably can add 0.5 kg for males and subtract 0.5 kg for females. Compare this to a JRT which is said to weigh between 6-8kg. Edited by manics, May 14 2013, 08:50 AM.
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| Vita | May 14 2013, 09:52 AM Post #20 |
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Cave Canem
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Domestic cats just can't stack up against a terrier. It's almost no contest. |
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| Deleted User | May 14 2013, 10:17 AM Post #21 |
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Yes it can at parity. |
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| Vita | May 14 2013, 11:22 AM Post #22 |
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Cave Canem
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Highly unlikely. Even if they were comparable in strength, the terrier's jaws are bigger, its canines more formidable. Perhaps if the cat was a significantly bigger. |
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| blackngold | May 14 2013, 12:44 PM Post #23 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Cool video. I would love to get some more of the backstory of this. It was shot in an urban area. Looked like a front yard. And animals can be very territiorial. Clearly the cat "won". It chased the dog off. And it seemed to be very aware of the camera person. Anyway. It is amazing how fast both of those animals ran. |
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| Lycaon | May 14 2013, 12:54 PM Post #24 |
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Omnivore
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Actually Gato I do not find feral cats running away from dogs due to the presence of man as an excuse. If anything I am happy to hear people make out such an observation. It gives the dog another psychological advantage over the feline. Even without humans presence feral cats and wildcats will associate these dogs with danger of mankind. This disadvantage cannot be overlooked, an animal with a stressed mentality will not fight as well as one who does. Seeing how this fleeing pattern is ingrained into the minds of these animals, posters cannot create such fantasies as "well if the cat wants to kill the dog...bla bla". Yes I think the fight is pretty much one sided, no matter how you see it the cat has to go against too many psychological and physical disadvantages. Did I say that the dog would never get hurt? no. But a win is a win. Even if the wild cat can go toe to toe with a terrier, I wouldn't call it anything but a loss if it can't get the job done. |
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| Gato Gordo | May 14 2013, 02:25 PM Post #25 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Hi Manics !!! I haven't read you for a long while, but I am also posting very infrequently. Thanks for the documentary on feral cats in Rome. I remember that you mentioned that feral colony and the dominant males Cesar and Brutus in old correspondence, now I have the chance of seeing them.
I have seen the effects of neutering already with about a dozen of my toms that were original feral or semi-feral (independent street cats with some socialization with humans). They were all lean but mean muscular fibrous 4-4.5 kg machines before neutering, becoming softies and in a few cases obese. In all cases they gained at least 30% extra fat in weight. While some remained reasonably fit and functional, their agility and strength diminished. Neutering makes also the masseter jaw muscles much weaker, so their bite and killing abilities go way down (their faces begin looking kitten-like). In fact, in a recent trip to South Africa I saw several captive (but not neutered) African wild cats, which are the wild ancestors of domestic cats. The males weighed 9-10 lb (4-4.5 kg) and had the body size of feral cats, but their heads were impressively wide and bulky. I will post the pics as soon as I have some free time. There are giant breeds like the Maine coon or Norwegian forest cat, reaching 6-7 kg without being obese, but these breeds are very special and expensive show cats that remain so heavy because they are not feral but softies bred for size. All folks boasting that "small dog always beat big house cats" never provide any detail of the type of cat that was involved, so we have to assume that the cats were either feral weighing much less than the dog or big softy obese pets. I challenge folks to provide evidence that a 7 kg JRT or similar has massacred a healthy non-neutered lean-but-mean 7-8 kg cat in 5 seconds. |
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| Gato Gordo | May 14 2013, 03:02 PM Post #26 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Lycaon, Remember that pumas and leopards also flee from dogs, and associate the dogs with Mankind even if the hunters are far away or absent. The feromones emitted by female cat in heat can be smelled by toms standing 4-5 km away (the same for other feline species), so sensing (hearing/smelling) the presence of a hunting party at similar distance is not hard to believe. Lions in Tsavo easily distinguish human activity, they can distinguish between random activity of unorganized folk and organized activity of hunters, policemen or armies, and react differently. So, I'm happy that you recognize that the effects of human presence are not an "excuse", because they are factual. Having said this, notice that also in the case of pumas or leopards we asses their hypothetical chances of dealing with the dogs or with a single dog one-one even if they are stressed and the dog or dogs are "confident". I do agree with you that in most cases (perhaps almost all real cases) the cats flee and this is an advantage for the dog, though special situations and examples exist in which pumas and leopards have turned back and counter attacked and killed these "confident" dogs. Examples exist also for bobcats, and possibly wild cats could also do it (though we don't have examples of it). Whether the cats could prevail or not in these special and infrequent cases depends then more on other factors (morphology, weaponry, motivation, etc) than the "ingrained" stress that you mention. Aside from human intervention, small working terriers do have a morphological edge over feral cats: much larger weight (7-8 kg vs 3-4 kg), larger muzzles and jaws, and LAST BUT NOT LEAST their selective breeding to flush out/hunt/kill small game, foxes, raccoons, etc. Notice that any working terrier is a very special individual dog performing much better than any other dog of its size that was not a product of this breeding, whereas the feral cat is just an ordinary specimen, not an apex feral cat. Considering all these facts, then, yes, the dog prevails in most encounters, perhaps having more trouble with an apex feral cat. However, if the encounter involves real weight parity and a European wild cat, then things change: the terrier would still have an edge (larger muzzle/skull/jaws more robust limbs), but would face much more risk and would have a much harder time. IMO the dog could even end up in worse shape than the wild cat in some encounters. The skulls of African wild cats that I saw in South Africa were quite impressive (I will post the pictures) and European wild cats have even bigger skulls. I even venture saying that while a small working terrier would have a better chance in a fight, these cats do have the morphology to kill the terrier at least a minority of occasions. Edited by Gato Gordo, May 14 2013, 03:10 PM.
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| FelinePowah | May 14 2013, 04:46 PM Post #27 |
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Pussy Lover
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A 4kg terrier is really really small and would not have a strength advantage over a cat of the same weight anf i cant see its jaw power being that much greater then the cats..... lets not forget the cat can get into postions that the dogs jaws can not reach.. |
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| da pink | May 14 2013, 06:03 PM Post #28 |
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Omnivore
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so a fairer match would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Terrier v housecat. That's not such a tough one to call. The link above says this breed was originally bred for ratting. Now I have seen many, many, Yorkies and I like 'em but i've never seen one I think could take a rat, whilst I have met many moggies that can. On that spurious logic I'm taking the cat to win |
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| Bandog | May 14 2013, 06:23 PM Post #29 |
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Everything else is just a dog.
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It's the age old debate lol. Any cat that can't escape a similar sized terrier is obviously a poor specimen in no shape to fight. If it can fight, it will get away. Cats sometimes shock me though. I've had a cat try and intimidate my dog before. |
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| da pink | May 14 2013, 07:13 PM Post #30 |
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Omnivore
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Next doors cat is more than a match for my hand, he reminds me of this whenever he sneaks in my house and I have to get him from under the sofa |
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