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| Predator - prey relationships | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 25 2013, 12:39 AM (63,587 Views) | |
| Ntwadumela | Apr 23 2017, 08:19 AM Post #241 |
Herbivore
  ![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/28122/87/0/p701956/pipright.png)
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 A smooth-fronted caiman (Paleosuchus trigonatus) eating an emerald boa (Corallus caninus). |
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| Lycaon | May 16 2017, 02:33 PM Post #242 |
Omnivore
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Kudu vs Spotted Hyenas
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| MightyKharza | May 16 2017, 04:07 PM Post #243 |
Omnivore
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Would be interesting to know what happened next, seeing as the kudu is already bleeding (look at the tail and inside of the right leg) |
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| Lycaon | May 17 2017, 01:47 AM Post #244 |
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Omnivore
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I noticed the injuries earlier too. Just as curious to know what has happened beforehand. There is another hyena on the background, wonder if its lack of participation is due to unwillingness or was it fended off in a similar manner. |
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| Cape Leopard | May 17 2017, 05:00 AM Post #245 |
Heterotrophic Organism
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That caiman looks like he's wearing a helmet |
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| MightyKharza | May 27 2017, 08:19 PM Post #246 |
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Omnivore
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| Lycaon | Jun 4 2017, 10:37 AM Post #247 |
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Omnivore
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Not sure if I have posted these before. Feral dogs hunting Chital stag  Dhole hunting Chital stag  |
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| A-Jay | Jun 4 2017, 03:48 PM Post #248 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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That is something I've been wondering about, can grizzlies kill equally large or even larger game than lone lions and tigers? Some lone lions and tigers are able to kill adult buffalo, so I've wondered whether some lone brown bears can do the same with an equally-sized or even larger bison. Has there been word from bear spotters on this one? I guess frequency doesn't strictly come into it as cats are obligate carnivores whereas bears are omnivores and don't always need to hunt meat. An issue for brown bears may be that the larger bears that are more capable of killing adult bison, tend to run slower than their smaller counterparts. Average-sized brown bears can run 35 mph, however the large boys may only do 25 mph. So the bears that are capable of killing adult bison might not be able to catch them to begin with, and the bears that can catch adult bison may not be able to handle one. And as far as I know, stealth and ambush are not a brown bear's speciality. I'd assume lone large brown bears could take on even larger game than lone lions and tigers, although I haven't seen evidence of it apart from this photo. |
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| Grazier | Jun 4 2017, 04:21 PM Post #249 |
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Omnivore
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Cool pic, is it in India? A similar scene could be seen in parts of Australia where chital and dingo coexist. On grizzlies preying on large game, I really don't think they are comparable to tigers and lions. A lot of free ranging cattle in remote parts of alaska living side by side with huge numbers of grizzlies for months with no human contact and losses are very minimal. The kilcher family for example in the show "Alaska the last frontier" drive their cattle herd to the head of the bay every spring and leave them there amongst tonnes of grizzlies until winter, miles and miles away from their homestead. The odd one might get a scar on its back from a failed predation attempt. I know farmers in Zimbabwe and south Africa that simply can't even begin to entertain the idea of grazing cattle in lion country. Not without huge losses. Only native tribesmen will do it and they can because a) they watch over their herds and b) they accept losses are part of life due to less focus on "profits". So what all this means in my view is lions and tigers are much more effective predators of at least large bovines, if not all large animals. |
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| A-Jay | Jun 7 2017, 02:29 PM Post #250 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Thanks for the answer Grazier. It does seem that way, grizzlies don't do The Big Ones quite like lions and tigers. Not sure why though. I guess for some reason they aren't able. Maybe not fast enough to catch em. |
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| The All-seeing Night | Jun 8 2017, 05:15 PM Post #251 |
You are without honor
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Salamander eats mouse 
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| Warsaw2014 | Jun 9 2017, 01:17 AM Post #252 |
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Herbivore
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"On grizzlies preying on large game, I really don't think they are comparable to tigers and lions" Yes,grizzlies are not comparable to tigers and lions.Generally speaking ,omnivores ( i.e.bears) are the most flexible eaters of the animal kingdom. "A lot of free ranging cattle in remote parts of alaska living side by side with huge numbers of grizzlies for months with no human contact and losses are very minimal" Do you have any information about " free ranging cattle in remote parts of alaska"? What about wolves ,coyotes and others obligate predators.? Attacks on livestock by obligate predators can be a serious problem when " leave them miles away from their homestead" "The kilcher family for example in the show "Alaska the last frontier" drive their cattle herd to the head of the bay every spring and leave them there amongst tonnes of grizzlies until winter, miles and miles away from their homestead" Atz Kilcher "...Among countless other things, he must protect his brother Otto's herd from the wide range of meat hungry predators where they graze. South Central Alaska is home to black bear, brown bear, wolves and coyotes that all consider Otto's cattle their own meat supply. It is Atz Sr.'s job to ensure that is not the case. Were the predators to have their way, Otto's herd would be decimated in a season. Atz, the range-rider, refuses to allow that to happen..." http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/alaska-the-last-frontier/bios/atz-kilcher/ "The odd one might get a scar on its back from a failed predation attempt. I know farmers in Zimbabwe and south Africa that simply can't even begin to entertain the idea of grazing cattle in lion country. " Bells, bomas and beefsteak: complex patterns of human-predator conflict at the wildlife-agropastoral interface in Zimbabwe "...In this study, the majority of livestock were lost at night when roaming outside of and away from protective bomas. Sixty four percent of all attacks occurred when livestock were left outside bomas at night. The small proportion of attacks occurring within bomas is significant when one considers that livestock individuals in our study sites spend most of their time within bomas, leaving only during daylight hours to graze (L Sibanda, pers. obs., 2016) and are only occasionally left out at night (Kuiper et al., 2015) . In our study sites, more assiduous use of protective enclosures at night could greatly reduce the availability of livestock to predators and hence reduce overall losses. A recent study of cattle movements in the Tsholotsho site (Kuiper et al., 2015) found that on average cattle spend 62 nights a year outside the protection of bomas. This accords with a study in Botswana (Valeix et al., 2012) in which the majority of livestock killed were stray animals left grazing far from protective enclosures at night. By contrast, studies in Kenya (Woodroffe et al., 2007) and Tanzania (Kissui, 2008) showed that livestock are generally well tended when grazing, and most livestock killed were taken from within bomas (Kolowski & Holekamp, 2006)..." "...We hypothesized that bells fitted to grazing livestock (as is common in southern Africa) might aid carnivores in locating and attacking unattended, grazing livestock. We therefore predicted that carnivores might selectively attack livestock with bells due to a learned association between the sound of bells and presence of livestock. To test this for lions and hyaenas, we estimated prey preference for livestock with and without bells using Jacobs’ Index (Jacobs, 1974). Here r represented the proportion of attacks on livestock animals with bells and p represented the relative availability of livestock animals with bells. Availability was determined as the proportion of the total livestock in each site with bells. Analyses were carried out separately for each site..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5267574/ Edited by Warsaw2014, Jun 9 2017, 01:56 AM.
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| Grazier | Jun 9 2017, 06:43 AM Post #253 |
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Omnivore
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That description of atz kilcher is all well and good and they will say similar things on the show for dramatic purpose but the reality is the cattle are completely alone at the head of the bay (open range miles away from there homestead) for months every year. Coyotes are no threat to cattle, wolf packs could be but wolves seem extremely rare where the kilchers are, also wolves are very picky with favouring sick, old or injured prey. However grizzly bears are THICK where the kilcher cattle graze. And this is just one family's herd out of undoubtedly thousands in Alaska doing the same or similar, not to even get started on Canada. Cattle can free range fairly safely in grizzly country, wolves are a bit more of a nuisance for cattle graziers but still workable, lion and tiger country is a big no no. Luckily (for the graziers-not the world) both are very rare. In Africa the cattle men all know very clearly what is lion country and what isnt and easily avoid it. The other predators are no problem. Cattle are alarmingly good at taking care of themselves. Even in lion country they can exist and breed and survive but beef producers don't want them to just scrape by. Lions will kill cattle in significant numbers, bears just don't. |
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| Warsaw2014 | Jun 9 2017, 09:23 PM Post #254 |
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Herbivore
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"Lions will kill cattle in significant numbers, bears just don't. " Yes because grizzlies are not comparable to tigers and lions.Generally speaking ,omnivores ( i.e.bears) are the most flexible eaters But you specifically said that "grizzly bears are THICK where the kilcher cattle graze".In reality, that is not the case: "That description of atz kilcher is all well and good and they will say similar things on the show for dramatic purpose but the reality is the cattle are completely alone at the head of the bay (open range miles away from there homestead) for months every year." "Cattle graze in the Fox River Flats at the head of Kachemak Bay." Fox River Flats Mammals "Moose move down the valley from the hills during winter months concentrating along the edges of the flats to feed on willow. Black and brown bear, coyote, red fox, and wolves occasionally cross the flats in their search for food." http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=foxriverflats.species GRAZING MANAGEMENT PLAN 8.1. INTRODUCTION The Alaska Division of Agriculture requires a Grazing Management Plan (GMP) on state lands leased for grazing (pursuant to AS 38 and 11 AAC 58 and 60; see CRMP Section 5). The GMP runs with the grazing lease and can be amended as necessary with state approval. Methods for enforcing GMP requirements are set forth in the grazing lease and 11 AAC. This chapter constitutes the GMP for the Fox River grazing lease area, ADL 226513" "Area 7 consists of 960.2 acres of grazed range and forest. The choke-point fence runs between this area and Area 4a, to the north. Pushing cattle north of the choke-point fence during early summer benefits brushline areas, which are otherwise heavily utilized by cattle for grazing, loafing, and staging. However, predators, both bears and wolves, are an issue north of the choke point fence. A range rider is often present to reduce predation on cattle moved to northern areas. " http://www.homerswcd.org/user-files/pdfs/CRMP-3chapters8-10.pdf "... The fence provides room for Fox Creek to meander. In addition to the barbed-wire fence, the cattlemen have installed an electric fence that extends into the tidelands and is intended to prevent ATVs from going around the end across the mudflats. FRCA hopes to have language incorporated in its next Special Area Permit from ADF&G allowing it to seasonally extend the electric fence further out into the CHA. FRCA also proposes to install a bear exclusion fence in this area in which to hold cattle when bears are active nearby..." Alaska: The Last Frontier - Cattle Drive 00:00:09 [ Gunshot ] Atz: I've seen wolves here. 00:00:11 I've seen black bear. I've seen brown bear. 00:00:12 You know, if a bear comes up while she's having a calf, she's as good as dead. 00:04:41 Atz: Along the beach, generally on the bluffs, you'll see black bear. 00:04:46 There's been at least one bear there, and there may be more, so we got to watch out. 00:04:49 Narrator: After eight winter months of hibernation, the bears are starving and extremely dangerous. 00:04:55 The slow-moving cattle on the drive would be easy targets, keeps his eyes on the surrounding wilderness for signs of predators. 00:05:04 Atz: Quite a few cattle had been lost. 00:05:06 Two brown bear I saw trying to kill a cow, and I had to shoot them. 00:05:25 [ Gunshot ] [ gun cocks ] Narrator: Atz's warning shot has scared the bear away, and hopefully keeps the trail clear for the cattle drive. 00:05:41 Back at their homestead, otto and his wife, charlotte, must decide which of their 32 head of cattle are able to make the 20-mile drive up the beach. 00:05:51 But surviving the constant threat from predators at the head of the bay is a bigger concern. You know, if a bear comes up while she's having a calf, she's as good as dead. 00:06:12 Otto: There's just no sense feeding an animal all winter and sending it up there for lunch for a bear And she's partnered up with this damn beef-cattle guy, so she definitely views the cows way more as a pet than I do. 00:06:59 The last time I sent a white one, it got eaten by the bears http://tv.ark.com/transcript/alaska__the_last_frontier-(cattle_drive)/6222/DSCP/Friday_October_03_2014/758289/ Some additional information; COORDINATED RESOURCE MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR THE FOX RIVER FLATS GRAZING LEASE AREA http://www.homerswcd.org/user-files/pdfs/CRMP-1chapters1-6.pdf " And this is just one family's herd out of undoubtedly thousands in Alaska doing the same or similar, not to even get started on Canada." What "doing the same or similar" mean? BTW Canada "...Grizzly bear and cougar attacks on cattle are much more common in western provinces, but a black bear taking down a fully grown beef cow within a herd is rare..." http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/bear-attack-dead-cows-1.3754265 "lion and tiger country is a big no no. Luckily (for the graziers-not the world) both are very rare. In Africa the cattle men all know very clearly what is lion country and what isnt and easily avoid it. The other predators are no problem. Cattle are alarmingly good at taking care of themselves. Even in lion country they can exist and breed and survive but beef producers don't want them to just scrape by. Lions will kill cattle in significant numbers, bears just don't. " Lions will kill cattle in significant numbers, bears just don't,because brown bear eat many different foods. |
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| A-Jay | Jun 10 2017, 01:15 AM Post #255 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Warsaw, do you think a 1,000+ lb brown bear can kill larger prey than a 500 lb lion if it wants to? I know large male lions can sometimes single-handedly kill healthy adult buffalo, so a very large brown bear should be capable of doing the same wouldn't you think? If not, what is the reason why lone brown bears can't take down healthy ungulate of that size? |
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6:34 PM Jul 13
